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General discussionWashington state court the first court in the United States to have failed kickstarters pay back backers their money.(83 posts)(83 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted September 15, 2015
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jamyskis: Not necessarily. Hubris, luck and changed circumstances can affect the outcome of a Kickstarter significantly.
But this doesn't really change what I said, that there's a small chance for the project to fail and a big chance it will be late. Your examples don't change this. Peter Molyneux was pretty much Peter Molyneux. Tim Schafer delivered what he promised. Keiji Inafune still might. Picking some outliers doesn't change the basic truth: Kickstarter has helped deliver quite a few good games which wouldn't have been made otherwise. That happened because people were willing to risk it. Some people are very risk averse and prefer to stay away from this, but even many of them are happy that the games were made.
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Trilarion: Totally agreed. That's the thing. I think what is missing for me is just a better track history of the teams or the team members, kind of which projects they have done in the past (on which plattforms) and how these turned out.
I'd say that mostly if they have experience they flaunt it, and if they don't mention it they likely don't have it.
Post edited September 15, 2015 by ET3D
Posted September 15, 2015
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ET3D: ... Tim Schafer delivered what he promised. ...
He missed the time line though by some years. At the expected date of completion the game was surely in an unplayable state and without additional funds it would probably also have been very small. It was a case of bad management. On the other hand the final product is good enough so that I would not see my backing as a failure. It just means that I would not back him again.

A real failure and breach of contract on KS was in my opinion Elite Dangerous. They really promised an offline DRM free mode and did not deliver it and additionally made a big fuss over just paying the backings back of those who wanted to be out. (Also they knew of this surely much before they admitted it in public (only shortly before release).) This is not really nice behavior.

I just searched for some more links regarding KS failure rates and somebody made a spreadsheat, really cool work:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lFW2sjShHriYRsyuVZx4Se8Qxjw38VJk4g-7cls8cpg/htmlview?usp=sheets_home&sle=true#

source (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=152951960#post152951960)
Post edited September 15, 2015 by Trilarion
Posted September 15, 2015
My personal experience with kickstarter projects is that only 25-33% of them have actually succeeded in anywhere like their promised timeline. The others have claimed they are still in development; but, at this point I think they are all over a year beyond expected dates and I don't hold out much for them eventually showing up. So about a year ago I decided to not back anything further. By looking at the spreadsheet of moderate-large projects Trilarion shared the link to, it looks like nearly a third of projects are failed or in danger, less than that successful (about a quarter) and all the rest are still in process.
Posted September 16, 2015
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Trilarion: He missed the time line though by some years.
Yes, you need to go into any project assuming that it would be late. That's doubly true when the project gets a lot more money than it asked for (8 times more, in the case of Double Fine).

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Trilarion: I just searched for some more links regarding KS failure rates and somebody made a spreadsheat, really cool work:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lFW2sjShHriYRsyuVZx4Se8Qxjw38VJk4g-7cls8cpg/htmlview?usp=sheets_home&sle=true#
Thanks for the link. That's a nice spreadsheet. It does miss on all the smaller games, many of which I backed and did deliver.
Post edited September 16, 2015 by ET3D
Posted September 16, 2015
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ET3D: ... That's a nice spreadsheet. It does miss on all the smaller games, many of which I backed and did deliver.
It would be interesting to see if the failure rate is higher for large or for small projects.
Posted September 16, 2015
Personally I see this as a dangerous precedent, not an achievement in consumer rights, because Kickstarter backers aren't consumers and imo a decision like this could discourage many indie devs from using KS.

Kickstarter is not some kind of pre-order store, contrary to what many people seem to think. If you back a game on KS, you do so knowing that you might not get anything out of it, because there are no guarantees when it comes to creating games (or books, or paintings or anything where actual creativity is involved). Just look at how often publishers cancel games.

The developers might find that what they wanted to know is impossible, life might get in the way, in short many things could happen that would cause their game not to be delivered on time or at all.
If the state can fine them for it, what next? Are G.R.R. Martin fans going to sue him for taking so long to write books too?
Posted September 16, 2015
Here's a list of game projects I backed (even if at just $1) and status (without commenting on the end result) :

Double Fine Adventure - delivered
Pixel Sand - Very slow progress, updated about once a year
Guncraft: Voxel-based First Person Shooter - delivered
Wasteland 2 - delivered
TAKEDOWN - delivered
Shadowrun Returns - delivered
Jane Jensen's Moebius and Pinkerton Road Studio - delivered
Spate - delivered
Malevolence - The INFINITE RPG! - early access
Tex Murphy - Project Fedora - delivered
The Time Tribe - Episodic time travel adventure game - delivered
Rival Threads : Last Class Heroes - The Final Push - on hold (refunds offered)
Paper Sorcerer - delivered
Defense Grid 2 - delivered
Detective Grimoire - delivered
Project Giana - delivered
Shadowrun Online - early access, problem fulfilling physical rewards
Broken Sword - the Serpent's Curse Adventure - delivered
Project Eternity - delivered
Conclave - delivered
Arakion - in alpha, frequent updates
Ring Runner - Flight of the Sages - delivered
Shadowgate - delivered
Sui Generis - not yet; early access subset Exanima delivered
Infinity Wars - *Animated* Trading Card Game - Delivered on PC, but Android (which I backed for) not available yet
Anima - Gate of Memories - not yet; updates every month or two
Data Hacker Initiation - delivered
Meriwether: An American Epic - in beta, updates every few months (last in July)
Days of Dawn - not yet; frequent updates
Akaneiro: Demon Hunters - delivered
Beyond Beyaan - not yet; not a lot of updates, but looks to be still alive
Mage's Initiation - not yet

That's up to the start of 2013. I don't feel like continuing, and naturally the further we get, the more projects are still in development.
Posted September 16, 2015
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mystral: Personally I see this as a dangerous precedent, not an achievement in consumer rights, because Kickstarter backers aren't consumers and imo a decision like this could discourage many indie devs from using KS.

Kickstarter is not some kind of pre-order store, ...
Well, the way it's done nowadays, it kinda is : You pay money in exchange for the promise of some future product. Dunno how it works in your country, but in French law it is clearly a purchase, not some sort of "donation" or "investment". And a purchase is something that is defined by law. If I go to the bakery to order a strawberry cake for tomorrow, and the next day the baker says "sorry, but we couldn't get strawberries, so no cake", I get my money back if I ask for it (I may accept his chocolate cake instead, but I'm not expected to), even if the baker tried his best to make that cake and spent some of the money I gave him.

The problem is that although KS say they are not preorders and the backers are not consumers, they do their best to push all our "consumerist" buttons in order to get as many money as possible : They promise full fledged products, baubles and shiny things, some of them exclusives, to the people that will send them money. Their "risk" paragraph is some nice "we'll do it and it will be awesome, we promise" PR talk. They give irrealist release date so that we expect some quick reward and not some faraway project. They want people to "buy" their loot.

Some KS do not offer a product to backer. The final product get into stores or is released freely, and the backer does not get an advantage out of his money. Strangely, those KS struggle to get money when a "disguised preorder" KS might have succeeded easily, because most backers go to KS to puchase stuff, not simply to support a project.
Posted September 16, 2015
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mystral: Personally I see this as a dangerous precedent, not an achievement in consumer rights, because Kickstarter backers aren't consumers and imo a decision like this could discourage many indie devs from using KS.

Kickstarter is not some kind of pre-order store, ...
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Kardwill: Well, the way it's done nowadays, it kinda is : You pay money in exchange for the promise of some future product. Dunno how it works in your country, but in French law it is clearly a purchase, not some sort of "donation" or "investment". And a purchase is something that is defined by law. If I go to the bakery to order a strawberry cake for tomorrow, and the next day the baker says "sorry, but we couldn't get strawberries, so no cake", I get my money back if I ask for it (I may accept his chocolate cake instead, but I'm not expected to), even if the baker tried his best to make that cake and spent some of the money I gave him.

The problem is that although KS say they are not preorders and the backers are not consumers, they do their best to push all our "consumerist" buttons in order to get as many money as possible : They promise full fledged products, baubles and shiny things, some of them exclusives, to the people that will send them money. Their "risk" paragraph is some nice "we'll do it and it will be awesome, we promise" PR talk. They give irrealist release date so that we expect some quick reward and not some faraway project. They want people to "buy" their loot.

Some KS do not offer a product to backer. The final product get into stores or is released freely, and the backer does not get an advantage out of his money. Strangely, those KS struggle to get money when a "disguised preorder" KS might have succeeded easily, because most backers go to KS to puchase stuff, not simply to support a project.
Actually, as far as I'm concerned, KS backers pay money in exchange for the promise that their money will be used to try to deliver the project they've backed. There are no guarantees it actually will be completed, although to be honest all the projects I've backed so far have been finished (some very, very late though) or are still being worked on.

It's not supposed to be the same thing as ordering something at a store, although I'm aware that's the expectation of most backers. Legally I have no idea how it would hold up, but imo if judges start holding KS project managers accountable for honest failures and fining them, it could start a really slippery slope, because it would also make any artist who receive an advance and don't deliver (writers who get blocked, etc...) accountable.

I'm aware that part of the problem is that Kickstarter and the devs using try their best to present their projects as a sure thing and completely gloss over the risks. Still the fact is that those risks exist, despite the actual failure rate being very low in my experience (I've backed 29 games on KS, 13 have been finished, the rest are still works-in-progress, mostly with frequent updates to show the devs are still working).


P.S. The baker example doesn't hold up btw, because any time I order something physical, I pay on delivery, not when I order it.
Posted September 16, 2015
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mystral: I'm aware that part of the problem is that Kickstarter and the devs using try their best to present their projects as a sure thing and completely gloss over the risks.
I think I would be FAR more lenient with KS if the projects front pages stated, in big letters, that there is a real possibility that the product will never be sent, or with several years of delay. That's what would make KS legitimate in my eyes : Honesty, from the start, BEFORE they get the money. Of course, being honest and upfront would mean getting less money.
In the present state, it is not advertized at all. Hell, even the "risk" page is mostly "we are real pros and the project is solid, so there is no risk". It's as if I asked about the possible accidents I can have in a car, and the answer was "My brakes are real good!"

Of course, that would not change the legal problem, which is that KS is a "hidden" sale for the law. (I don't know about US law, but a lawyer friend of mine explained the situation in France, and it's quite clear : A KS is a sale, and has to respect every rule that apply about them.)
But at least I would be far less cynical about it.

For the baker's example, I don't think the difference is that much : In the end, I get to keep my money if I don't get the cake. If I paid an advance, he will give it back to me. Even if no paperworks was made, an order is an implicit contract, and it must follow rules. Exactly the same rules that KS tries to get around.

PS : Ooops, didn't see your location. Makes my "I don't know about your country's laws, but..." sound quite silly, isn't it? ^^
Posted September 16, 2015
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Kardwill: I think I would be FAR more lenient with KS if the projects front pages stated, in big letters, that there is a real possibility that the product will never be sent, or with several years of delay. That's what would make KS legitimate in my eyes : Honesty, from the start, BEFORE they get the money. Of course, being honest and upfront would mean getting less money.
When you select to pledge, the pledge page says this:

"Kickstarter is not a store. It's a way to bring creative projects to life.

Kickstarter does not guarantee projects or investigate a creator's ability to complete their project. It is the responsibility of the project creator to complete their project as promised, and the claims of this project are theirs alone.

Learn more about accountability" (that's a link)

There's also a mandatory "Risks and challenges" section on the project page. For example in the case of Divinity: Original Sin 2 it says:

"We're already funding the game ourselves and are coming to Kickstarter with the aim of expanding the game's feature-set and seeking funds to integrate community input. The biggest risks are that we'll be late (a real possibility), or that certain features that we are planning on now might be changed (or even cut) as we move ahead with development.

If that happens, it'll be because we hit a real roadblock or because some other feature ended up taking significantly more time and resources than we expected. Those kinds of things happen, but they shouldn't affect our ability to finish and release an innovative game that'll be a whole world of fun."

So there's stuff there. It's not in big letters, but neither is it in tiny letters.

That said, I agree that projects often say in the risks section: "there are risks, but we think we can overcome them." They don't really say there is no risk, they even list the risks, but they spend some time trying to convince that the risks are low.
Post edited September 16, 2015 by ET3D
Posted September 16, 2015
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ET3D: "We're already funding the game ourselves and are coming to Kickstarter with the aim of expanding the game's feature-set and seeking funds to integrate community input. The biggest risks are that we'll be late (a real possibility), or that certain features that we are planning on now might be changed (or even cut) as we move ahead with development.

If that happens, it'll be because we hit a real roadblock or because some other feature ended up taking significantly more time and resources than we expected. Those kinds of things happen, but they shouldn't affect our ability to finish and release an innovative game that'll be a whole world of fun."
Mmmh, that's surprisingly honest for a KS risk page.

I've been a little burned with pearls like this one (Robotech Tactics)

[i]A project of this scope requires the successful collaboration of artists, sculptors, writers, game designers, and manufacturers. Managing this complex process and minimizing delays are the largest challenges we face in bringing Robotech® RPG Tactics™ to market. We have learned from past experience that success requires careful planning and a full understanding of the scope of the project. In order to facilitate the timely delivery of Robotech® RPG Tactics™, Palladium Books and Ninja Division have brought in a host of new talent to work on the project.

To help ensure realistic deadlines, we have completed the vast majority of our development before launching the Kickstarter. Sculpts for the game pieces are almost entirely complete. The rulebook and game components are deep in development and will be ready for layout soon. Our manufacturers are also ready and have reserved factory time for the project. This means that as soon as the project is funded, we can lock down a timeline with our manufacturers to get the game produced.

It is our commitment to you, the Kickstarter backers, that we will maintain consistent communication throughout the process. This means regular updates, product photos, and plenty of behind the scenes insight as we complete the creation of Robotech® RPG Tactics™.[/i]

And then they proceeded with :
- being ovewhelmed by the scope of the project (both in backer number, money -2000% of the goal-, international distribution and number of different models)
- had a breakup between the 2 companies the month after they grabed the money
- blew their "realistic deadlines" to hell, because
- none of the "almost completed" sculpts had been made for the miniatures (even the computer modelling for the first models was completed AFTER the deadline.)
- Oh, and they broke communication for month, too

2 1/2 years later, I'm still waiting for half of the models, and the first half are a mess, nowhere near the gaming pieces that were promised. Let's say I'm somewhat cynical about the whole mess nowadays. ^^

I know there are many competent KS projects out there. I backed several of them. But the few "rotten fruits" mean that KS projects have to be accountable before the law.
Post edited September 16, 2015 by Kardwill
Posted September 16, 2015
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Kardwill: I know there are many competent KS projects out there. I backed several of them. But the few "rotten fruits" mean that KS projects have to be accountable before the law.
Agreed. In particular, if the project creators lie outright to backers, they should be held accountable for it.
Posted September 16, 2015
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Kardwill: 2 1/2 years later, I'm still waiting for half of the models, and the first half are a mess, nowhere near the gaming pieces that were promised. Let's say I'm somewhat cynical about the whole mess nowadays. ^^

I know there are many competent KS projects out there. I backed several of them. But the few "rotten fruits" mean that KS projects have to be accountable before the law.
I understand that it's easy to get burned by a bad KS project and feel jaded about the whole thing, but imo as long as the people involved make an honest attempt to deliver what they've promised, they shouldn't have to worry about being sued.

Personally when I first heard of Kickstarter (for Wasteland 2 IIRC), I pledged to 10 games that looked promising on paper. And I only expected a return on investement of maybe 1 great game and 3-4 good ones at best. Instead I was pleasantly surprised, since I got 3 great games, 4 good ones, 2 I didn't like and 1 that still hasn't been delivered.

Overall KS has proven to be a pretty big boon for me since it basically revived my favourite genre, RPGs, with titles like SR: Dragonfall, Divinity: Original Sin, Wasteland 2 or Pillars of Eternity. Which is why I get a bit too defensive when something seems to threaten its future I guess.


Anyway my original point was that if we start suing people simply because they broke their promises, our justice system will become completely paralyzed.
And if we go down that route, I'd rather we start with politicians than indie devs, it'd be much more deserved and useful imo.
Posted September 16, 2015
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Shadowstalker16: Yes. If I recall she said she was ''going to prove sexism in video games'' which is both vague and intangible. And clearly different from at least a somewhat set goal of creating a game right? She offered an intangible goal as tangible and that is at least a bit anti-donater.
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ET3D: No, not really. She said she's going to make videos and said what's going to be in them, quite specifically (i.e., she said which stereotypes she's going to show). It's a completely concrete goal with a clearly defined end result. It's certainly not more vague than Broken Age or Wasteland 2, and I think that if you took a Tropes vs. Women backer and a Double Fine Adventure backer and asked them up front what the end result would look like, the Tropes backer would have predicted it much better. (Take a look at the project.)
While I think Anita is a stupid bitch, the fact is that she does seem to have fulfilled her promise. Well, up to this point, I think she does still have a few videos left to complete.

The issue I haver with her KS is that she promised something that shouldn't have been produced and people gave her money to do it.

OTOH, she did plagiarize those clips and we have no way of knowing whether or not she played the games, which is something that's rather serious and not something that she indicated she would be doing.
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Kardwill: 2 1/2 years later, I'm still waiting for half of the models, and the first half are a mess, nowhere near the gaming pieces that were promised. Let's say I'm somewhat cynical about the whole mess nowadays. ^^

I know there are many competent KS projects out there. I backed several of them. But the few "rotten fruits" mean that KS projects have to be accountable before the law.
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mystral: I understand that it's easy to get burned by a bad KS project and feel jaded about the whole thing, but imo as long as the people involved make an honest attempt to deliver what they've promised, they shouldn't have to worry about being sued.

Personally when I first heard of Kickstarter (for Wasteland 2 IIRC), I pledged to 10 games that looked promising on paper. And I only expected a return on investement of maybe 1 great game and 3-4 good ones at best. Instead I was pleasantly surprised, since I got 3 great games, 4 good ones, 2 I didn't like and 1 that still hasn't been delivered.

Overall KS has proven to be a pretty big boon for me since it basically revived my favourite genre, RPGs, with titles like SR: Dragonfall, Divinity: Original Sin, Wasteland 2 or Pillars of Eternity. Which is why I get a bit too defensive when something seems to threaten its future I guess.

Anyway my original point was that if we start suing people simply because they broke their promises, our justice system will become completely paralyzed.
And if we go down that route, I'd rather we start with politicians than indie devs, it'd be much more deserved and useful imo.
What concerns me is the KS attitude with regards to it. For a while I was lending money through Kiva. I stopped because I found out that Kiva knew about fraud and kept it quite even as they funneled more money into contacts that they had already caught embezzling funds.

KS isn't anywhere near that bad, but there's the same troubling sort of pattern. KS doesn't have any responsibility at all and no ability to claw the money back from the projects if they're not fulfilling their promises. What's more, I wound up paying a foreign transaction fee that KS didn't tell me about. Apparently, if you back a project they charge the card from the location that the project is, and not a US address like they suggest in all their emails.
Post edited September 16, 2015 by hedwards
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General discussionWashington state court the first court in the United States to have failed kickstarters pay back backers their money.(83 posts)(83 posts)
(83 posts)