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General discussionValve's Steam Machines Have Run Out Of Steam(126 posts)(126 posts)
(126 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted June 04, 2016
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Pheace: Could you have picked a less representative example though, COD games are notorious for not having dropped their prices like most other games do.
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mechmouse: did you look at my link further back?
Almost all of the games I looked at had a base price higher than the same game new on console.

Digital depreciation is an purposeful act dictated by the publisher rather than something that happens due to organic market forces.

With infinite stock and no warehousing cost, they can set the price and forget about it.
I know very few people who look at the base price of a game and consider that it's current day value. I honestly don't find the depreciation of base price that relevant in digital retail with guaranteed big sales several times a year and many sale moments inbetween. I find it far more relevant to look at the net? prices of games during sales, after taking the discount off whatever the base price is at that moment.

And from experience, that is something that tends to go down fairly quickly in digital retail. Though some games more than others, and as mentioned, COD is an extremely notorious example there for keeping a relatively high base price and sticking to a maximum discount of 50% years after most other games would.
Post edited June 04, 2016 by Pheace
Posted June 04, 2016
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mechmouse: did you look at my link further back?
Almost all of the games I looked at had a base price higher than the same game new on console.

Digital depreciation is an purposeful act dictated by the publisher rather than something that happens due to organic market forces.

With infinite stock and no warehousing cost, they can set the price and forget about it.
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Pheace: I know very few people who look at the base price of a game and consider that it's current day value. I honestly don't find the depreciation of base price that relevant in digital retail with guaranteed big sales several times a year and many sale moments inbetween. I find it far more relevant to look at the net? prices of games during sales, after taking the discount off whatever the base price is at that moment.

And from experience, that is something that tends to go down fairly quickly in digital retail. Though some games more than others, and as mentioned, COD is an extremely notorious example there for keeping a relatively high base price and sticking to a maximum discount of 50% years after most other games would.
but a sale on any given game is unpredictable. yes a summer/winter sale is a given, but a sale on a game you're after is not.
Even with sales the average price of a game over the year will be higher than a new console disc.

PC players have wait and hope for a good deal, a console player can go onlline and get any game they want next day a lot cheaper than the normal digital price.

I'm not saying sales aren't a good deal, they are.

Also I'm not even factoring the ability to sell old games.
Posted June 04, 2016
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mechmouse: Also I'm not even factoring the ability to sell old games.
Even consoles are selling more and more digital every day, it's not likely to be relevant that much longer anyway.
Post edited June 04, 2016 by Pheace
Posted June 04, 2016
No one here has the vision that I think the people at Valve have.

The Steam Machine isn't really about selling Steam Machines.

I mean yeah, it provides bridge for console gamers looking to see what PC gaming is all about.

As for no games? That's bull. Are they getting every new AAA title? No. They're getting some of the bigger AAA titles from a few years ago to make Steam OS versions, yes, and that's probably gonna stay that way for a bit.

But really, I think Steam OS exists for one real reason, to jumpstart Linux gaming. It's done that.

Are people buying Steam Machines in droves? No. But are developers are now starting to treat Linux as a viable and important platform for which to develop, and that's going to turn into a self-fulfilling prophesy. The more games work on Linux, the more Linux gamers there are going to be, which is going to strengthen Linux's presence.

I know TONS of people that would switch to Linux instead of Windows if they could play games on it. Now they can, and I know people now actually making that switch.

With Steam OS and Vulkan, with increased support for Linux gaming, the issues that Linux gaming has (that are related to support) will disappear. Windows is NOT a better gaming OS (and in fact takes up more system resources than just about any Linux distro). The reason Linux performs worse than Windows right now is because developers right now really only know developing for Direct X. It's been that way for YEARS. Now Linux is getting the support it needs to get just as optimized as Windows.

TL;DR: The Steam Machine isn't really meant to be a successful platform in and of itself. It's supposed to jump start linux gaming (which it has), and the Steam Controller is supposed to make it easier to play PC style games with a controller (which it has, and all you people saying "Oh, I did that by plugging in a 360 controller," no, no you didn't, not unless you bought Pinnacle Game Profiler, created a controller compatible OSK that you can bring up using the controller, and even then, no where near the functionality or ease as the Steam Controller).
Posted June 04, 2016
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mechmouse: Also I'm not even factoring the ability to sell old games.
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Pheace: Even consoles are selling more and more digital every day, it's not likely to be relevant that much longer anyway.
I think even the next gen of consoles will have media.
All I hope is the law matures and consumer software starts to be treated in the same manner as commercial software.
Posted June 04, 2016
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ChrisRevocateur: No one here has the vision that I think the people at Valve have.

The Steam Machine isn't really about selling Steam Machines.

I mean yeah, it provides bridge for console gamers looking to see what PC gaming is all about.

As for no games? That's bull. Are they getting every new AAA title? No. They're getting some of the bigger AAA titles from a few years ago to make Steam OS versions, yes, and that's probably gonna stay that way for a bit.

But really, I think Steam OS exists for one real reason, to jumpstart Linux gaming. It's done that.

Are people buying Steam Machines in droves? No. But are developers are now starting to treat Linux as a viable and important platform for which to develop, and that's going to turn into a self-fulfilling prophesy. The more games work on Linux, the more Linux gamers there are going to be, which is going to strengthen Linux's presence.

I know TONS of people that would switch to Linux instead of Windows if they could play games on it. Now they can, and I know people now actually making that switch.

With Steam OS and Vulkan, with increased support for Linux gaming, the issues that Linux gaming has (that are related to support) will disappear. Windows is NOT a better gaming OS (and in fact takes up more system resources than just about any Linux distro). The reason Linux performs worse than Windows right now is because developers right now really only know developing for Direct X. It's been that way for YEARS. Now Linux is getting the support it needs to get just as optimized as Windows.

TL;DR: The Steam Machine isn't really meant to be a successful platform in and of itself. It's supposed to jump start linux gaming (which it has), and the Steam Controller is supposed to make it easier to play PC style games with a controller (which it has, and all you people saying "Oh, I did that by plugging in a 360 controller," no, no you didn't, not unless you bought Pinnacle Game Profiler, created a controller compatible OSK that you can bring up using the controller, and even then, no where near the functionality or ease as the Steam Controller).
The Steam Machines won't ever jumpstart Linux gaming.

The three local GameStop's and one Bets Buy in my local area barley sold any Steam Machines in these 7 months.

The three GameStop managers I talked to feel like VALVe has burned a bridge between them in terms of business. However I don't know what GameStop's CEO thinks.

Linux is getting for sale some of the AAA video games from a few years ago yes true, but Linux is dropping in % month by month on Steam's Hardware Survey.

Linux will never catch up to Windows until MicroSoft seriously screws up and actually does a walled garden to corner the PC video games market with UWP or whatever. Which for now is not happening.

MicroSoft developed and published video games will be sold on the Windows Store using UWP, but AAA video game publishing companies won't sell their video games exclusively on the Windows Store.
Posted June 04, 2016
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Randalator: I disagree on the last part. Even second hand console games are usually a lot more expensive than PC games. PC games are cheaper as full price and they are cheaper in sales, precisely because of digital distribution. The ubiquity, immediacy and simplicity of digital distribution has resulted in most PC games selling for full retail price for less than a year and regular sales with massive discounts.

Also there is no need for a big second hand market anymore because sale prices are cheaper today than second hand prices used to be before digital distribution. As for sales, you had to wait many years to find a game, let alone a AAA game, in a bargain bin for a price that they today regularly reach after 2-3 years. And they're available for everyone at that price, not just the lucky fuck who managed to find the one single copy at the bottom of the bin.

If anything makes PC games more expensive than console games, it's the combined price for game and platform. If you don't buy many games, the higher price of a decent gaming PC will make the gaming experience overall more expensive.
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mechmouse: I can not disagree with you more.
Maybe the UK is different. In Germany new console games are always ~20% (50 EUR vs. 60 EUR) more expensive than their PC counterparts while budget prices are usually double the price of the PC game (10 EUR vs. 20 EUR). And the second hand market reflects that.
Posted June 04, 2016
I expected them to fail since they were announced because this:

* PC gamers are actively avoding prebuilts because their terrible price/performance ratio.

* Valve made the project in a hurry to make their own walled garden where no competition could be present (surely we already had GOG, Origin, uPlay and other clients, but none comes preinstalled like the Windows Store does).

* They pushed SteamOS (it came preinstalled on most of these machines) without signing a partnership with the BIG publishers to port games for it, don't expect to sell a console replacement that can't run CoD or FIFA or the trending AAA game.

Their "fight fire with fire" approach failed.
Post edited June 04, 2016 by enigmaxg2
Posted June 04, 2016
just realized I said "instead of" 60 fps. no I meant run at high res + 60 fps.
Posted June 04, 2016
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PookaMustard: And the only way you justify that is...

One, single, honest, question.
What about the resolution that drives every single one of you nuts?
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johnnygoging: you need to take a chill pill Valve's Steam Machines Have Run Out Of Steam thread
/me puts a tinfoil hat
Chill pills are harmful.
/me takes off the tinfoil hat

Answer thy question.
Posted June 05, 2016
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mechmouse: I can not disagree with you more.
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Randalator: Maybe the UK is different. In Germany new console games are always ~20% (50 EUR vs. 60 EUR) more expensive than their PC counterparts while budget prices are usually double the price of the PC game (10 EUR vs. 20 EUR). And the second hand market reflects that.
At release yes, because the console fee.

But 6 months later, due to simple economic depreciation, physical console games have normally lost 1/4 to 1/2 their valve. While PC digital will remain at full price, with the exception of a few days when it was on sale.
Posted June 05, 2016
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ChrisRevocateur: No one here has the vision that I think the people at Valve have.

The Steam Machine isn't really about selling Steam Machines.

I mean yeah, it provides bridge for console gamers looking to see what PC gaming is all about.

As for no games? That's bull. Are they getting every new AAA title? No. They're getting some of the bigger AAA titles from a few years ago to make Steam OS versions, yes, and that's probably gonna stay that way for a bit.

But really, I think Steam OS exists for one real reason, to jumpstart Linux gaming. It's done that.

Are people buying Steam Machines in droves? No. But are developers are now starting to treat Linux as a viable and important platform for which to develop, and that's going to turn into a self-fulfilling prophesy. The more games work on Linux, the more Linux gamers there are going to be, which is going to strengthen Linux's presence.

I know TONS of people that would switch to Linux instead of Windows if they could play games on it. Now they can, and I know people now actually making that switch.

With Steam OS and Vulkan, with increased support for Linux gaming, the issues that Linux gaming has (that are related to support) will disappear. Windows is NOT a better gaming OS (and in fact takes up more system resources than just about any Linux distro). The reason Linux performs worse than Windows right now is because developers right now really only know developing for Direct X. It's been that way for YEARS. Now Linux is getting the support it needs to get just as optimized as Windows.

TL;DR: The Steam Machine isn't really meant to be a successful platform in and of itself. It's supposed to jump start linux gaming (which it has), and the Steam Controller is supposed to make it easier to play PC style games with a controller (which it has, and all you people saying "Oh, I did that by plugging in a 360 controller," no, no you didn't, not unless you bought Pinnacle Game Profiler, created a controller compatible OSK that you can bring up using the controller, and even then, no where near the functionality or ease as the Steam Controller).
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Johnathanamz: The Steam Machines won't ever jumpstart Linux gaming.

The three local GameStop's and one Bets Buy in my local area barley sold any Steam Machines in these 7 months.

The three GameStop managers I talked to feel like VALVe has burned a bridge between them in terms of business. However I don't know what GameStop's CEO thinks.

Linux is getting for sale some of the AAA video games from a few years ago yes true, but Linux is dropping in % month by month on Steam's Hardware Survey.

Linux will never catch up to Windows until MicroSoft seriously screws up and actually does a walled garden to corner the PC video games market with UWP or whatever. Which for now is not happening.

MicroSoft developed and published video games will be sold on the Windows Store using UWP, but AAA video game publishing companies won't sell their video games exclusively on the Windows Store.
It's not about "catching up to Windows." If that were the only measure of success in the Gaming market, then consoles should just be forgotten about, as no single console has anywhere near the gaming market share that Windows has.

It's about making Linux a viable gaming platform. This is already done. The gaming public has already turned its head to at least look at this "new" entry.

With the fact that it's easier to develop for Linux than it ever has been before, especially since some very common game engines are enabling instant exports of Linux builds from their engines, and the fact that Vulkan is going to make open source graphics implementations stronger will just add to that.

The Steam Machines themselves are a commercial flop, sure. But we're gonna get a ton more Linux games from now on, and that's not gonna stop. Go ahead, be pessimistic, but the Steam Machine did it's job.
Post edited June 05, 2016 by ChrisRevocateur
Posted June 05, 2016
Cant say it's surprising...
Posted June 05, 2016
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Johnathanamz: The Steam Machines won't ever jumpstart Linux gaming.

The three local GameStop's and one Bets Buy in my local area barley sold any Steam Machines in these 7 months.

The three GameStop managers I talked to feel like VALVe has burned a bridge between them in terms of business. However I don't know what GameStop's CEO thinks.

Linux is getting for sale some of the AAA video games from a few years ago yes true, but Linux is dropping in % month by month on Steam's Hardware Survey.

Linux will never catch up to Windows until MicroSoft seriously screws up and actually does a walled garden to corner the PC video games market with UWP or whatever. Which for now is not happening.

MicroSoft developed and published video games will be sold on the Windows Store using UWP, but AAA video game publishing companies won't sell their video games exclusively on the Windows Store.
I remember when Microsoft first tried to popularize and promote a hardware/software platform by "partnering" with other companies and OEMs. First there was their attempt to compete with the iPod with their PlaysForSure platform. Then there was their original attempts to compete with Android/BlackBerry/iOS with Windows Mobile and later, Windows Phone and Kin. Arguably, all of them failed. In contrast, Microsoft's attempts to push a unified, clearly defined hardware/software platform with the XBox and Surface have proven to be arguably successful (the Zune/Zune HD did fail, but I believe it failed more because of poor business decisions as opposed to deficiencies in the platform itself).

I personally believe that Valve would have had much better success with a unified platform where they developed not only the software, but the hardware too, instead of largely relying on OEMs to do it for them. I personally imagined a Steam Machine to be the ultimate distillation of the benefits and power of the Steam gaming experience (warts and all), in an affordable no-nonsense package. Instead, what we got looked to me like it was little more than a messy assemblage of OEMs selling hardware that offered little incentive to buyers who could have just gotten the parts to build or configure their own gaming PCs running Windows.

"Why should I get a Steam Machine when I can just get a console or a moderately spec'd gaming PC?" That's the question I think Steam really should have answered, with a singular product with a clearly defined vision. IMHO, Steam did not deliver on that.

The good news is that even if Steam Machines or Steam OS are complete and utter failures, Linux gaming will still continue to grow and progress. We have Steam's availability on Linux, in addition to HIB putting Linux front and centre with Windows and the Mac, to thank for that.
Posted June 05, 2016
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mechmouse: So the SteamMachines market was "those unable to move a box from one room to another".
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AFnord: More like those who don't want to have to bother dealing with it every time they move from their chair to their couch for gaming.
I for one would not even bother with couch gaming if I had to unplug my PC, move it to another room, plug it in, then move it back to where it usually sits and plug it in there again.
Buy a Steam Link for 50 bucks, hook it up to your TV and home network and you can stream any Steam game from your gaming PC to your TV. That's more functionality for less than a tenth of the price of a decent Steam Machine.

So Valve itself is selling a very reasonably priced product that renders the very idea of a Steam Machine completely pointless...
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionValve's Steam Machines Have Run Out Of Steam(126 posts)(126 posts)
(126 posts)