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General discussionUS Inauguration day, one of those historic moments?(437 posts)(437 posts)
(437 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted January 30, 2017
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Hey you! Yes you! This is a political thread! What do you think you're doing? Stop trying to be reasonable and polite and agreeing to concede some points. Just pick a clearly defined side and start insulting everybody on the other side! Jesus. It's like you're new to the Internet :P
Post edited January 30, 2017 by Breja
Posted January 30, 2017
Even more interesting...read this...

Guess who chose these 7 countries. Hint...it wasn't Trump. In fact, Trump doesn't even mention those 7 countries in his order, he didn't have to...

https://sethfrantzman.com/2017/01/28/obamas-administration-made-the-muslim-ban-possible-and-the-media-wont-tell-you/

Now think about that in light of all the reports from CNN, MSNBC and every stupid liberal idiot claiming Trump left out Saudi Arabia and Pakistan because he has business interests there and every stupid uninformed fool talking about how no terrorists came from those countries...

Want to tell me how the media is just trying to provide facts and aren't biased...
Post edited January 30, 2017 by RWarehall
Posted January 30, 2017
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amok: Speaking of which, Putin is currently moving more troops into Ukraine. Just because.... well... Just because he feels he can.
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RWarehall: Really, since I think the UK has universal mental health care, I highly suggest you look into it. That level of paranoia is not normal. Maybe your friends can stage an intervention on your behalf if they are reading this and you are unwilling to get treatment yourself. Seeing WW3 in everything is just about as mental as thinking you are Jesus.
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tinyE: He's not my President.
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RWarehall: Guess what, he is! Despite your lack of touch with reality!
Not so much seeing WW3 (those are youtube words), but the world have become a more tense place the last week. Stirring up the One China policy, wanting to move the embassy to Jerusalem and allowing new settlements, giving Putin carte blanche.... all are setting back on going negotiations several year.

When it comes to this new government and foreign policy and diplomacy, the term "bull in a china-shop" comes to mind....
Post edited January 30, 2017 by amok
Posted January 30, 2017
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RWarehall: Really, since I think the UK has universal mental health care, I highly suggest you look into it. That level of paranoia is not normal. Maybe your friends can stage an intervention on your behalf if they are reading this and you are unwilling to get treatment yourself. Seeing WW3 in everything is just about as mental as thinking you are Jesus.

Guess what, he is! Despite your lack of touch with reality!
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amok: Not so much seeing WW3 (those are youtube words), but the world have become a more tense place the last week. Stirring up the One China policy, wanting to move the embassy to Jerusalem and allowing new settlements, giving Putin carte blanche.... all are setting back on going negotiations several year.

When it comes to this new government and foreign policy and diplomacy, the term "bull in a china-shop" comes to mind....
When it comes to being an alarmist fool, the name Amok comes to mind...

How about showing me all these orders Trump made in the first week endorsing any of those things? Or are you also so stupid to buy into all the media hype over nothing.

Trump took a congratulations call from the President of Taiwan. So fucking what? It takes an insane liberal nutjob to read more into that than the sentence itself. He's also said he wishes to reduce the Trade Deficit which many Presidents before him have said as well. Neither of those things alarm me at all. Nor should they alarm anyone else unless they are prone to paranoia and hyperbole.

Israel has been talking about settlements for 40 years. So what? Nothing has changed and we are no closer to a Two State solution than we were then. Learn your history.

As to Putin, I have never heard Trump claim he is giving him a free pass. Citation please, and hopefully you aren't planning to quote a Democrat about it.

This is exactly what I mean about people believing everything they hear from their chosen media echo chambers. How about thinking for yourself for a change.
Post edited January 30, 2017 by RWarehall
Posted January 30, 2017
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Breja: Hey you! Yes you! This is a political thread! What do you think you're doing? Stop trying to be reasonable and polite and agreeing to concede some points. Just pick a clearly defined side and start insulting everybody on the other side! Jesus. It's like you're new to the Internet :P
I try to be respectful to everyone's view, regardless if I share that view or not. Yes even on the internet which is mostly filled with trolls. If someone want's have a logical thoughtful debate about such issues, that is fine with me. As long as the other side is willing to concede that having the view of "America first" or that thinking an a ban on certain countries might be a good idea for various reasons doesn't mean I'm against immigration or the such. Personally I'm willing to concede points when they are valid.
Posted January 30, 2017
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USERNAME:dtgreene#Q&_^Q&Q#GROUP:4#Q&_^Q&Q#LINK:345#Q&_^Q&Q#Except that I am pretty sure Obama didn't bar those who are already permanent residents from entering.

Trump's executive order did, causing many people to be stranded, especially given how it came without warning.#Q&_^Q&Q#LINK:345#Q&_^Q&Q#
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According to this tweet (or, more precisely, the image (containing just text) attached to the tweet), green card holders are still being detained.
https://twitter.com/JackSmithIV/status/825887594999332864

Also, those with valid visas are being detained as well, as are family members of US citizens.

In other news, a judge has ordered the return of a deported person.
https://twitter.com/chrisgeidner/status/825867929648504833
Posted January 30, 2017
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dtgreene: According to this tweet (or, more precisely, the image (containing just text) attached to the tweet), green card holders are still being detained.
https://twitter.com/JackSmithIV/status/825887594999332864

Also, those with valid visas are being detained as well, as are family members of US citizens.

In other news, a judge has ordered the return of a deported person.
https://twitter.com/chrisgeidner/status/825867929648504833
First off your source is a tweet... I'm giving you what is being reported from Homeland Security. Second this just started going out not to long ago, sometimes it can take a while to reach every place.

Also per the article: A White House official, briefing reporters about the change in policy, said that about 170 people have applied for a waiver to the ban so far, and all 170 have received a waiver and have been allowed to enter the U.S.

A waiver still has to be obtained by green card holders. As I said inconvenience... sure, but not the end of the world.
Posted January 30, 2017
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This EO is very different from Obama's. Obama's got vetted before being put into place, there was a grace period, it wasn't so badly written it swept up green card holders or permanent residents, etc.

The President is head of the executive branch. Executing laws correctly is his whole job. A failure as bad as this one is blatant evidence of incompetence and letting personal fears put Americans and the American economy at risk.

That's not even getting into removing the head of Homeland Security and the NSA from the National Security Council and replacing them with his policy advisor. I can't imagine a clearer sign that Trump is going to value his pet issues over American lives.
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USERNAME:dtgreene#Q&_^Q&Q#GROUP:4#Q&_^Q&Q#LINK:352#Q&_^Q&Q#According to this tweet (or, more precisely, the image (containing just text) attached to the tweet), green card holders are still being detained.
https://twitter.com/JackSmithIV/status/825887594999332864

Also, those with valid visas are being detained as well, as are family members of US citizens.

In other news, a judge has ordered the return of a deported person.
https://twitter.com/chrisgeidner/status/825867929648504833#Q&_^Q&Q#LINK:352#Q&_^Q&Q#
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Green cards grant their holders the right to go to and from the US without being stopped like this. Trump is thwarting the whole point of our current visa system, and endangering us by making illegal immigration look more attractive. If going through the extensive review to get a green card doesn't protect you from being stopped and detained, why bother with it?
Post edited January 30, 2017 by Gilozard
Posted January 30, 2017
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http://boingboing.net/2017/01/30/spinal-tap-audio-is-a-perfect.html
Posted January 30, 2017
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Gilozard: snip
Grace period? What grace period? When Obama did it, it was completely unannounced. People were sending in applications and no one was getting approved and no one knew why.

But again explain how great and flawless the system was under Obama.

This is the problem today. People who are trying to find everything wrong with the opposition candidate and pretending like the people they support are just perfect.

If the figures are correct, only 109 people were detained. How many of them were actual green card holders? How many mistakes were actually made? And how many were just on travel visas? But keep telling us what a real mess it was as someone who is getting all their information from activists...unless you want to tell us how you have direct information...

As to Green card holders not getting stopped, that isn't true either. I sure hope Homeland Security is checking out even Green card holders when they are coming back from visiting these countries to make sure they really are who they claim and there isn't other problems. To claim they should be given a free pass after being vetted once is rather short-sighted. Heck, Americans get stopped at the Canadian border all the time. Maybe you should get your facts straight instead of trying to find every excuse why Trump is wrong. I'm getting sick of the partisan politics and the number of uninformed people who have no clue what they are actually talking about.

Learn to think for yourself. Learn to read between the lines. This really wasn't the clusterfuck the activists and media are trying to make it out to be.

Funny, if the Quebec terrorist attack turned out to be Canadians, I'm sure this thread was going to be overrun by people blaming Trump.

One last food for thought:
Back to this statistic:
Syrian refugees admitted to the U.S. since the start of the war there:
2011: 29
2012: 31
2013: 36
2014: 105
2015: 1,682
2016: >31,000

Does it really make sense to anyone that we can start admitting 20 times more people and vet them just as well? Did the immigration service go on a hiring binge? Or is it far more likely that those admitted in 2011-2014 were much more carefully checked than those who came after? Look at 2016, that's almost 100 a day. How many people do you think are assigned to do those background checks? How long do you think they spent per person? Where did they find all the new hires already familiar with vetting Syrian nationals?

Personally, I see the reasoning behind why Trump might be concerned with the vetting process. Look at the numbers. Think for yourself. Does being a neo-lib somehow mean you become blind to facts? Trump has promised to resume visas within 120 days after he's had a chance to reform the system. I don't see that as all that unreasonable especially when certain parties are undoubtedly going to blame him for anything that might go wrong. A temporary ban to get on top of things makes sense to me. If it becomes permanent, then we'll talk. Until that time, he deserves a bit of leeway, the same leeway every other President usually gets who isn't named Trump at the beginning of their term...
Posted January 30, 2017
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Gilozard: This EO is very different from Obama's. Obama's got vetted before being put into place, there was a grace period, it wasn't so badly written it swept up green card holders or permanent residents, etc.

The President is head of the executive branch. Executing laws correctly is his whole job. A failure as bad as this one is blatant evidence of incompetence and letting personal fears put Americans and the American economy at risk.
As I already said I agree to an extent that it could have been handled better. However, in the grand scheme of things it went rather smoothly and these issues were quickly solved/improved. The amount of people impacted were pretty tiny in comparison. These type of major policy changes hardly ever go off without some issues.

I think your real issue here is your don't agree with the order, which is fine, but polls as of less than two years ago showed a majority of Americans support orders blocking refugees...

http://www.gallup.com/poll/186866/americans-again-opposed-taking-refugees.aspx

The president's job first and for most is to protect American citizen's and do what he (or she) feels is the best interest of the USA. Even the liberal left with the likes of Chuck Schumer was calling for the same type of things that Trump wants to do, and intends to do giving the 90 days to do so. I'm pretty sure he even called for a pause on the refugee program at one point.

https://twitter.com/senschumer/status/667408740858134528

Those "tears" yesterday were nothing more the politics as usual in Washington... now will this order hold up in court? Who knows, but from what I have read, it appears the President is well within his power.

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Gilozard: Green cards grant their holders the right to go to and from the US without being stopped like this. Trump is thwarting the whole point of our current visa system, and endangering us by making illegal immigration look more attractive. If going through the extensive review to get a green card doesn't protect you from being stopped and detained, why bother with it?
I think using the term "right" here is wrong, privilege yes... the ability to enter any country when not an actual citizen is a privilege, not a right. This is something people seem to fail to understand. It's also well within the government's rights to vet people again or ask more question for anyone entering the country, even if you don't agree with it.

Do I think it's needed? Maybe... maybe not, I don't think it really harms anything either, it's a just a minor inconvenience. Also they said only people regularly traveling back and forth within the banned countries will need to go through the process over and over.
Posted January 30, 2017
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USERNAME:Gilozard#Q&_^Q&Q#GROUP:4#Q&_^Q&Q#LINK:354#Q&_^Q&Q#This EO is very different from Obama's. Obama's got vetted before being put into place, there was a grace period, it wasn't so badly written it swept up green card holders or permanent residents, etc.

The President is head of the executive branch. Executing laws correctly is his whole job. A failure as bad as this one is blatant evidence of incompetence and letting personal fears put Americans and the American economy at risk.#Q&_^Q&Q#LINK:354#Q&_^Q&Q#
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USERNAME:Gilozard#Q&_^Q&Q#GROUP:4#Q&_^Q&Q#LINK:354#Q&_^Q&Q#Green cards grant their holders the right to go to and from the US without being stopped like this. Trump is thwarting the whole point of our current visa system, and endangering us by making illegal immigration look more attractive. If going through the extensive review to get a green card doesn't protect you from being stopped and detained, why bother with it?#Q&_^Q&Q#LINK:354#Q&_^Q&Q#
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It's a legally granted right specifically given to green card holders and one of the major selling points of getting a green card. 'Right' is precisely the right word to use. This is the government going back on its word in many fundamental ways (violating immigration act, potentially unconstitutional, ignoring what green cards do, etc).

Also no, this was not smooth at all. There is a proper process for these things! Trump issued an order late on Friday and caused massive harm and disruption, both for the people caught in it right now and with the longer term effects on tourism (America gets lots of foreign tourism and some areas depend on it), businesses being competitive (people need translators, local representatives, etc), our allies being able to reach us (this ban prevents UK MPs from coming to America!).

There are reports that government agents are ignoring court orders, that permanent residents have been bullied into giving up their green cards in order to get out of jail, that due process is not being followed, and that police are deliberately interfering with citizens using their right of free speech and assembly. This is the opposite of orderly.

As for holding up in court, 4 courts have already issued orders stopping it pending court cases! The President is not clearly within his rights. Where are you getting your news?

This is a tremendous mistake by the administration. I would be just as upset if it banned everyone with blue hair, or any other reason - the way it was done shows complete contempt for regular Americans and our laws.
Post edited January 30, 2017 by Gilozard
Posted January 30, 2017
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Gilozard: It's a legally granted right specifically given to green card holders and one of the major selling points of getting a green card. 'Right' is precisely the right word to use. This is the government going back on its word in many fundamental ways (violating immigration act, potentially unconstitutional, ignoring what green cards do, etc).

Also no, this was not smooth at all. There is a proper process for these things! Trump issued an order late on Friday and caused massive harm and disruption, both for the people caught in it right now and with the longer term effects on tourism (America gets lots of foreign tourism and some areas depend on it), businesses being competitive (people need translators, local representatives, etc), our allies being able to reach us (this ban prevents UK MPs from coming to America!).
We will agree to disagree then... you have a very narrow view here. Over 300,000 people arrived in the country in the 24 hour period, less than 200 were impacted by this order. In the grand scheme of things it was rather smooth.

It easy to sit and judge how something should be handled, it's another to actually be the one handling it...

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Gilozard: As for holding up in court, 4 courts have already issued orders stopping it pending court cases! The President is not clearly within his rights. Where are you getting your news?
A lot of legal experts have already stated they believe the order will hold up court, from what I have seen. The order itself has not been overturned, some people however were granted temporary stays via the court system. Yes there are challenges to the order already filed, but it's highly debatable on if it will be overturned.

EDIT:

Here is one such source, based on a quick google search:

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/immigration/316871-trumps-immigration-ban-is-clumsy-but-perfectly-legal

From the article:

"The president’s authority to declare such suspensions can been found in section 212(f) of the INA, the pertinent part of which reads as follows:

"(f) Whenever the President finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate.""
Post edited January 30, 2017 by user deleted
Posted January 30, 2017
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USERNAME:Gilozard#Q&_^Q&Q#GROUP:4#Q&_^Q&Q#LINK:358#Q&_^Q&Q#It's a legally granted right specifically given to green card holders and one of the major selling points of getting a green card. 'Right' is precisely the right word to use. This is the government going back on its word in many fundamental ways (violating immigration act, potentially unconstitutional, ignoring what green cards do, etc).

Also no, this was not smooth at all. There is a proper process for these things! Trump issued an order late on Friday and caused massive harm and disruption, both for the people caught in it right now and with the longer term effects on tourism (America gets lots of foreign tourism and some areas depend on it), businesses being competitive (people need translators, local representatives, etc), our allies being able to reach us (this ban prevents UK MPs from coming to America!).#Q&_^Q&Q#LINK:358#Q&_^Q&Q#
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USERNAME:Gilozard#Q&_^Q&Q#GROUP:4#Q&_^Q&Q#LINK:358#Q&_^Q&Q#As for holding up in court, 4 courts have already issued orders stopping it pending court cases! The President is not clearly within his rights. Where are you getting your news?#Q&_^Q&Q#LINK:358#Q&_^Q&Q#
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You are ignoring the broader issues caused by this order. The chaos and confusion it caused, as well as the insult to some of our closest allies and most important companies, is a serious issue. I detailed some of the problems it has already caused in my previous post.

Focusing solely on the number of people detained in the past 2 days since the order took effect is the narrow view, and it misses a lot of the harm caused by this hasty and ill-conceived EO.

[Citation needed] on these lawyers that say it is likely to pass. It's too early to predict that at all, really, and anyone who is certain one way or another is someone I would be skeptical of. My point was that this is not clearly in the President's rights, and that to push ahead so quickly with something so controversial is not the act of a good President. Nothing you have said refutes that.

ETA: To respond to your edit, that article sidesteps some of the serious concerns. For example, green card holders were not given waivers until after the protests started, but the article acts like the waivers were given from the beginning. Also, that article does not talk about the immigration act of 1965 at all, which may prohibit banning people based on nation/ethnicity, and does not discuss constitutionality which is a concern with this EO. It seems like a hastily written piece that is ignoring some of the facts.

Like I said, it's to early to say one way or the other. That is why Trump should have waited for legal to review things. His failure there is a very bad sign.
Post edited January 30, 2017 by Gilozard
Posted January 30, 2017
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Gilozard: You are ignoring the broader issues caused by this order. The chaos and confusion it caused, as well as the insult to some of our closest allies and most important companies, is a serious issue. I detailed some of the problems it has already caused in my previous post.

Focusing solely on the number of people detained in the past 2 days since the order took effect is the narrow view, and it misses a lot of the harm caused by this hasty and ill-conceived EO.
No I'm not, I'm simply focusing on the right of the President to determine who can and can't enter the country.

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Gilozard: [Citation needed] on these lawyers that say it is likely to pass. It's too early to predict that at all, really, and anyone who is certain one way or another is someone I would be skeptical of. My point was that this is not clearly in the President's rights, and that to push ahead so quickly with something so controversial is not the act of a good President. Nothing you have said refutes that.
No it's really not. There are laws on the book giving the President this power, unless congress passes something stripping the President of this power... then it going to be hard to overturn it. See edit.
Post edited January 30, 2017 by user deleted
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This is my favourite topic
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General discussionUS Inauguration day, one of those historic moments?(437 posts)(437 posts)
(437 posts)