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General discussionUpcoming update to GOG.com policies(465 posts)(465 posts)
(465 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted January 02, 2015
Here is also a very informative source: https://www.eff.org/issues/coders/reverse-engineering-faq

Here is a relevant quote:
How Could Contract Law Limit Reverse Engineering?

Most software today comes with EULAs, and EULAs may have “no reverse engineering” clauses. Websites or other internet services also may TOS or TOU that purport to restrict otherwise legal research activities. Researchers and programmers sometimes receive access to code pursuant to an NDA, developer agreement or API agreement that restricts the right to report security flaws. The legal status of contractual prohibitions on security research or vulnerability reporting is still in flux. While it is more likely that a court will enforce a negotiated NDA than a mass market EULA, the law is not clear. Be sure to consult with counsel if the code you want to study is subject to any kind of contractual restriction.
Post edited January 02, 2015 by shmerl
Posted January 02, 2015
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Ghostbreed: So wait. Does this mean we can't alter the .conf files that comes with all the DOS games in the near future?
no, of course not.
Any modification options offered by the game itself(or dosbox in this case) are still allowed. You can still use any modding possibilities officially offered, like level editors, changing config files and yes, you can also still go into the options menu and change the screen resolution :p

What falls under this paragraph is stuff like widescreen patches which change part of the exe, or texture replacement or content mods which rely on reverse-engineering to discover how the game data is stored and of course new written ports of the game engine which rely on completly reverse-engineering the game engine.

The authors of those will have to live with the uncertainty of how GOG will actually implement the new policy.
Will they just turn a blind eye to those mods, ignoring their own policy, or simply delete them from these forums?
Or even enforce sanctions for breaking the Terms of Use?
Posted January 02, 2015
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immi101: no, of course not.
Any modification options offered by the game itself(or dosbox in this case) are still allowed. You can still use any modding possibilities officially offered, like level editors, changing config files and yes, you can also still go into the options menu and change the screen resolution :p
Thank goodness.
Posted January 02, 2015
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immi101: What falls under this paragraph is stuff like widescreen patches which change part of the exe, or texture replacement or content mods which rely on reverse-engineering to discover how the game data is stored and of course new written ports of the game engine which rely on completly reverse-engineering the game engine.

The authors of those will have to live with the uncertainty of how GOG will actually implement the new policy.
Will they just turn a blind eye to those mods, ignoring their own policy, or simply delete them from these forums?
Or even enforce sanctions for breaking the Terms of Use?
Ok let's play a game....

Baldur's Gate EULA : (old installer, from 2010)

1.License. Company grants you a non-exclusive, non-transferable license to use ..... You agree not to modify or attempt to reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the Program, except and only to the extent that such activity is expressly permitted under applicable law notwithstanding this limitation.....

Yet plenty of mods/patch for this game

Fallout EULA (2011 installer)

1.License. Company grants you a non-exclusive, non-transferable license to use ..... You agree not to modify or attempt to reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the Program, except and only to the extent that such activity is expressly permitted under applicable law notwithstanding this limitation.....

Unreal Gold (The oldest installer I still have for a GoG game, from 2008)

I let you guess what's the EULA say... (slightly different this time as it's apparently Epic EULA and not GoG default one)

2. Restrictions. The Software contains copyrighted material, trade secrets and other proprietary material. In order to protect them, you may not decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble or otherwise reduce the Software, or any Mods created for this game or using the tools provided with this game, to a human-perceivable form, except and only to the extent that such activity is expressly permitted by applicable law notwithstanding this limitation....

So, the "uncertainty" you mention is nothing new, it was there since the very beginning of GoG six years ago.


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Gilozard: 2) EULA/TOS language attempting to limit my rights with my purchases
As I just mention; it's in GoG EULA since six years ago, in other words since the beginning of GoG.
Post edited January 02, 2015 by Gersen
Posted January 02, 2015
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Gersen: So, the "uncertainty" you mention is nothing new, it was there since the very beginning of GoG six years ago.

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Gilozard: 2) EULA/TOS language attempting to limit my rights with my purchases
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Gersen: As I just mention; it's in GoG EULA since six years ago, in other words since the beginning of GoG.
Not new in regards to games modding, yes. It's new in regards to GOG own stuff (installer, Galaxy and etc.) and that what this discussion is mostly about, since GOG have control over it and over rules they set in TOS for it.
Post edited January 02, 2015 by shmerl
Posted January 02, 2015
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shmerl: Not new in regards to games modding, yes. It's new in regards to GOG own stuff (installer, Galaxy and etc.) and that what this discussion is mostly about, since GOG have control over it and over rules they set in TOS for it.
(copy the post from the other thread)

READ THE FOLLOWING TERMS AND CONDITIONS CAREFULLY BEFORE INSTALLING THE PROGRAM. This end user license agreement (this “Agreement”) is a legal agreement between you (an individual or a single entity “You”) and GOG.com or GOG Limited (“Company”) for the accompanying software product which includes computer software and any associated media, printed materials, and/or “online” or electronic documentation (collectively, the “Program”). By installing, copying, or otherwise using the Program, you acknowledge that you have read this Agreement and agree to be bound by the terms. If you do not accept or agree to the terms of this Agreement, do not install or use the Program.

It also cover the installer; you are right that the website wasn't covered before though. I am pretty sure that Galaxy will have it's own EULA when you install it.
Posted January 02, 2015
No, that EULA covers the game, not GOG services and content like in the TOS. The game meaning Game + extras. New TOS is covering GOG services (i.e. Galaxy for instance, installers etc) and data (i.e. data they own I suppose).
Post edited January 02, 2015 by shmerl
Posted January 02, 2015
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shmerl: No, that EULA covers the game, not GOG services and content like in the TOS. The game meaning Game + extras. New TOS is covering GOG services (i.e. Galaxy for instance, installers etc) and data (i.e. data they own I suppose).
Last time I checked the installer was a computer software.
Posted January 02, 2015
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shmerl: No, that EULA covers the game, not GOG services and content like in the TOS. The game meaning Game + extras. New TOS is covering GOG services (i.e. Galaxy for instance, installers etc) and data (i.e. data they own I suppose).
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Gersen: Last time I checked the installer was a computer software.
What is your point, to defend interests of publishers who want to see DRM on GOG? If not, then stop trying to help them.
Post edited January 02, 2015 by shmerl
Posted January 02, 2015
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Gersen: Ok let's play a game....
EULA stuff
hmm ok, I never click on these when installing a game ( on principle).

oh well, those don't have any legal value anyways *shrug*
They are not part of the terms you agree to when buying the game. When buying you only agree to the terms of use and for some games to the publisher EULA linked on the game page (EA Games for example).
In fact I can't find the GOG EULA that you quote anywhere on the website. Terms that are not known to the buyer at the time of buying are not valid. And it is well known that those "accept-on-install"-kind of EULAs are totally worthless.

So I am still going to complain when those restrictive terms now find their way into a piece of text that actually has legal significance.

disclaimer: what I wrote is of course only correct for the local laws where I live. Things might be different elsewhere.
Posted January 02, 2015
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shmerl: What is your point, to defend interests of publishers who want to see DRM on GOG? If not, then stop trying to help them.
Seriously now ?

I GoG ever want add DRMs to their games (they would lose me as a customer if they ever do but that's another story), they wouldn't need to change anything in their EULA. The games EULA already forbid "tampering" with them and even if it wasn't it would change anything; just because something is not mentioned in the EULA it doesn't mean that it is authorized to do it; usually it's actually the opposite and many things (at least those copyright related) are forbidden unless explicitly authorized in the EULA. (of if you prefer the actual phrasing : All rights not expressly granted under this Agreement are reserved by Company.)

So personally I think it's kind of silly to see this change as a tentative for GoG (or publishers) to "sneakily" introduce DRM into their games rather than them using a "standard" EULA for Galaxy and other similar services, especially as it will include multi-players features.
Posted January 03, 2015
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shmerl: What is your point, to defend interests of publishers who want to see DRM on GOG? If not, then stop trying to help them.
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Gersen: Seriously now ?

I GoG ever want add DRMs to their games (they would lose me as a customer if they ever do but that's another story), they wouldn't need to change anything in their EULA. The games EULA already forbid "tampering" with them and even if it wasn't it would change anything; just because something is not mentioned in the EULA it doesn't mean that it is authorized to do it; usually it's actually the opposite and many things (at least those copyright related) are forbidden unless explicitly authorized in the EULA. (of if you prefer the actual phrasing : All rights not expressly granted under this Agreement are reserved by Company.)

So personally I think it's kind of silly to see this change as a tentative for GoG (or publishers) to "sneakily" introduce DRM into their games rather than them using a "standard" EULA for Galaxy and other similar services, especially as it will include multi-players features.
Others think differently. Welcome to dealing with other people!

This is especially a concern because it looks like GOG has already started to introduce technological locks on the installers, making it much less convenient to use them with new fan-made engines, etc.
Posted January 03, 2015
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Gilozard: This is especially a concern because it looks like GOG has already started to introduce technological locks on the installers, making it much less convenient to use them with new fan-made engines, etc.
Can you elaborate how password protected RAR inside the installer (which you call "technological locks") prevents the game or makes the game less convenient to use with "fan-made engines, etc"?
Post edited January 03, 2015 by d2t
Posted January 03, 2015
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d2t: Can you elaborate how password protected RAR inside the installer (which you call "technological locks") prevents the game or makes the game less convenient to use with "fan-made engines, etc"?
A change that GoG made six months ago in the new installers to make their life easier, among other things, had the side effect of making it slightly harder for some peoples to bypass the installer and extract their content directly, something GoG never advertise nor endorse in any way shape or form, if you "execute" the installer normally it doesn't change anything.

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Gilozard: This is especially a concern because it looks like GOG has already started to introduce technological locks on the installers, making it much less convenient to use them with new fan-made engines, etc.
And as I mention, which was one of the thing we debated, the "software" EULA, which IMO include the installer, already contains the "do not reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble,etc... " clause and does that since the very beginning of GoG.
Post edited January 03, 2015 by Gersen
Posted January 03, 2015
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Gilozard: This is especially a concern because it looks like GOG has already started to introduce technological locks on the installers, making it much less convenient to use them with new fan-made engines, etc.
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d2t: Can you elaborate how password protected RAR inside the installer (which you call "technological locks") prevents the game or makes the game less convenient to use with "fan-made engines, etc"?
The new installers don't work with WINE and the data files cannot be extracted without using the installer due to the password.

So, to play the games using fan-made engines is less convenient because now I need 2 installs (the regular one and the fan engine). And playing on Linux is sometimes flatly impossible without cracking the protection.

To me, this puts GOG on the same level as stores like Gamersgate (the online shop, not the misogynist trolls), GMG or Desura, where I sometimes have to tweak installers or watch out for policy changes. And since GOG is the same I am more likely to comparison shop and less likely to re-buy here if I have the game somewhere else.


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Gilozard: This is especially a concern because it looks like GOG has already started to introduce technological locks on the installers, making it much less convenient to use them with new fan-made engines, etc.
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Gersen: And as I mention, which was one of the thing we debated, the "software" EULA, which IMO include the installer, already contains the "do not reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble,etc... " clause and does that since the very beginning of GoG.
Debate is the key word there, which you are somehow misunderstanding.

You interpret the document one way. Others interpret it another way. No interpretation is any more valid than the other. GOG's interpretation is the one that matters, and they haven't clarified yet.

One interpretation is very concerning, especially when considered alongside the new technological lock. This is why we are asking for GOG to clarify and why people are upset.
Post edited January 03, 2015 by Gilozard
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionUpcoming update to GOG.com policies(465 posts)(465 posts)
(465 posts)