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EverNightX: It's a literal fact. You might be able to design game ideas, etc. and that's great. A lot goes into a full game beyond programming. But you literally don't know how to make a running video game. That's just true.
He who does not adress the graphic card directly, but uses DirecX instead, does not know how to make games.
He who relies on a existing script engine for his game scripts, does not know how to make games.
He who can't program his own operating system, does not know how to make games.
He who can't build his own computer, does not know how to create running games.
He who can't design his own processor, does not know how to create running games.

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EverNightX: No, actually that analogy makes no sense. The fact you can't see how flawed it is means there's really no point discussing it.
It actually only means that you are unable to explain it.
Post edited September 13, 2023 by neumi5694
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EverNightX: snip
Guy 1: "Hey, let's make a game!"
Guy 2: "Great idea! - How do we start?"
Guy 1: "Well, first we'll have to create a unique engine, that is specifically catered to our game..."
Guy 2:...
Guy 1: "Hello?"
Guy 2:...
Guy 1: "Still there?"
Guy 2:...
Guy 1: "Hello?"
Guy 2:...
Guy 1: "Hello-o-o?"
-----
Fun fact: "unique and catered to some specific game" engines, that had to be created from scratch, for the last 3.876.340 awesome game ideas, are THE main reason, why 3.876.339 games have never been made.
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BreOl72: What an elitist statement.
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EverNightX: It's a literal fact. You might be able to design game ideas, etc. and that's great. A lot goes into a full game beyond programming. But you literally don't know how to make a running video game. That's just true.
because what is most important in game desing is reinventing the wheel each time you make a game.
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neumi5694: It actually only means that you are unable to explain it.
No, what it means you'd be unable to comprehend the explanation and thus there's no point.
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amok: because what is most important in game desing is reinventing the wheel each time you make a game.
No one said that. Knowing how to create a game engine has nothing to do with game design.
Not everyone on the team needs to be working on the engine.
Not every team needs to create their own engine.

But if most of the industry consists of studios that don't know how the stuff they are shipping works, I think it's a problem. Now and more so in the future.
Post edited September 13, 2023 by EverNightX
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EverNightX: No one said that. Knowing how to create a game engine has nothing to do with game design.
See ... someone claiming that the other is too stupid or can't understand is always someone who run out of arguments.
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EverNightX: No one said that. Knowing how to create a game engine has nothing to do with game design.
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neumi5694: See ... someone claiming that the other is too stupid or can't understand is always someone who run out of arguments.
No. But you're right that I've run out of arguments. I'm done :)
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EverNightX: If you can't make your own engine YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO MAKE GAMES. You just know how to use Unity. Or you know how to use Unreal. But take those products away or the people who made them die off and they can't be maintained and guess what? You can't make games anymore. Because you don't know how.

We need people who know how.
The people who know how to make games are the game designers and writers, who come up with the gameplay and story and characters and what not. You can't do without those, and they need to work on each game specifically.
Then you have the artists, who flesh out the game's atmosphere, look and feel. This can be accomplished by common or purchased assets, but it can't possibly turn out anywhere near as well as when it's customized for the game. But even those custom assets can be purchased or done by contract workers, though they will need to be actually done for the game and those workers will always have an amount of creative freedom in them.
The programmers implement all that, and while you obviously can't have a game without them, their job is just to implement, to make the game do what the designers and artists want it to, so very much a job for contract workers with no actual say in the outcome. Which means they can also be indirect contract workers, as in those working to create the tools used by the designers and artists to put together their game.

Custom engines are good because they're tailored to the game, as opposed to trying to make a game according to the options offered by the engine, and because they can be optimized, while generic engines, even more so those made for multiple platforms, are utterly terrible in this aspect, hence the insane system requirements compared to what the games actually deliver for so many years now. But, while good, they're in no way necessary.

(Not so) random example: Bloodlines. It's a great and memorable game because of its design and artistic aspects, and despite the use of a 3rd party and, at the time, immature engine and being an awful buggy mess in terms of coding.
How many games can you say are great and memorable because they are competently coded from scratch and despite the awful design and art?

(PS: Unity sucks and shouldn't be used for many reasons, starting with the "telemetry", but this discussion went way beyond that.)
Post edited September 13, 2023 by Cavalary
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Breja: That's like saying a writer doesn't know how to write a book if he wrote it using a word processor he didn't create.
No, more snobbery. It's saying a writer doesn't know how to write if they didn't butcher the animals used to make parchment, personally render the skins dried in the sun, and didn't pluck a feather or press the cuttlefish for the ink.
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timppu: Why were you warning about it, ie. why did you see it as a problem?
I was warning people about the Unity engine not because of predatory monetization, but because of how hard it was to optimize the damn thing to run a game that looks like this without making all the fans and processes go 100%.
More details in case anyone is interested - https://www.axios.com/2023/09/13/unity-runtime-fee-policy-marc-whitten

Apparently they will only charge for the first installation in a particular device. So if you reinstall a game on the same computer, no additional fee. If you install it on a Steam Deck or ROG Ally or whatever, extra fee.

Still a bonkers idea.
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sergeant_citrus: Still a bonkers idea.
I'm just trying to get my head wrapped around the legality of it because as far as I understand it Unity wants to retroactively collect those fees for already released games as well as games coming out after Jan 1, 2024. That sounds extremely fishy to me. There should be no way they can just rewrite their licensing agreement after the fact. Hell, there are probably game devs knee-deep in development right now who would never agree to such shenanigans. Will they just be totally screwed?

I just hope they get a big swift kick in their collective nut sack for this bullshit. From what I've been reading elsewhere it sounds like quite a few indies will simply stop using Unity no matter whether they might backpedal this or not because they can't be trusted.
Post edited September 13, 2023 by P-E-S
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eric5h5: There are plenty of "games of the year" that use third-party engines.
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EverNightX: Then why haven't you mentioned any of these amazing games? It's not the GOTY title that matters.
Did you live under a rock during the Unreal Engine 3 gen? lmao
Almost every major third party used that, only first party studios could afford an in-house engine tailored for their needs (and nope, those games weren't necessarily better), with some rare standouts like Bethesda using their gamebryo

I understand the point you're trying to make, but really, without flexible and cheap engines games like Hollow Knight (Unity) wouldn't exist, and I'd rather live in the timeline where it does ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Post edited September 13, 2023 by Memecchi
A lot of devs/publishers have been posting online concerning this, but the one that caught my eye was a post by Devolver yesterday:

https://twitter.com/devolverdigital/status/1701685282129539485

"Definitely include what engine you’re using in game pitches.

It’s important information!"
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"Just as a note, gamers, the Unity changes mean the following for you:

- Demos are now risky to devs
- DRM-free games are now risky to devs
- Bundles are now risky to devs
- Giveaways are now risky to devs
- Updates are now risky to devs
- Multi-device users are now risky to devs"

from
https://twitter.com/tha_rami/status/1701669377395884134

so @GoG that will also Impact your business model. Time for a lawsuit?
Post edited September 13, 2023 by timesink
Oh, Unity. You came and you gave, but then you took.