It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
Community
General discussionUkrainian Civil War in progress?(1767 posts) (1767 posts) 
(1767 posts) 
Pages:
1
25
50
53
54
55
56
57
100
118
This is my favourite topic
Posted March 24, 2014
avatar
dr.zli: During Yugoslav civil war all sides did their fair share of ethnic cleansing, murder and rape. Serbian people is victim as much as any other.
But that's not relevant here, relevant fact is that the same scenario happens in Ukraine - Russia wants to grab a hold of strategic ports and resources for their country because pro-kremlin regime is done for. Referendum is organized without the consent of central government and Crimea is now independent.
If that's wrong in your book then we should just bring back former republics back into Yugoslavia and/or Kosovo into Serbia :D
What bothers me are double standards: if that behavior is bad then by all means don't make precedents, all animals are equal.
Only thing is, breakdown of Yugoslavia and independence of Kosovo happen to be good for the west so they're cool. Crimean independence is bad for them so west is not cool with it.
Only thing is - they can't do anything now because they already sent the message to all separatists in the world that it's cool to ignore central government and go for it.
avatar
AzureKite: One correction - Crimea didn't become independent. The most ridiculous and law-breaking thing they did is that they held an illegitimate referendum (cannot be initiated not on national level), which gave no choice (become part of Russia now or become almost independent and become part of Russia later) and moved Crimea from one country into another.
same with our country, only different superpower involved
Posted March 24, 2014
avatar
dr.zli: But that's not relevant here, relevant fact is that the same scenario happens in Ukraine - Russia wants to grab a hold of strategic ports and resources for their country because pro-kremlin regime is done for. Referendum is organized without the consent of central government and Crimea is now independent.
If that's wrong in your book then we should just bring back former republics back into Yugoslavia and/or Kosovo into Serbia :D
What bothers me are double standards: if that behavior is bad then by all means don't make precedents, all animals are equal.
Only thing is, breakdown of Yugoslavia and independence of Kosovo happen to be good for the west so they're cool. Crimean independence is bad for them so west is not cool with it.
Only thing is - they can't do anything now because they already sent the message to all separatists in the world that it's cool to ignore central government and go for it.
Again, without pointing at any side, a few corrections:

Kosovo never was about strategic points nor resources. It's also not true that the independence of Kosovo was good for the west - at best the whole situation created a viable mess, with no easy solution out and those involved locally being unable to resolve it. Combined with the, at that time, recent past in this region...

Oh, and the west didn't had anything to do with the breakdown of Yugoslavia - that's something you guys managed to start on your own. In fact, quite a few western tourists fled without any forewarning of events to come. For most of the "western" guys, this really came out of nowhere.

About a reforming of Yugoslavia and / or Kosovo into Serbia - you had all the tools to do (respectively keep it) so, all the time. But it wasn't those tools your leaders picked.
Now, you still have those tools. If, how and when you'll be able to use it, I can't say - but that's something you guys have to achieve and no one else.
Posted March 24, 2014
avatar
dr.zli: During Yugoslav civil war all sides did their fair share of ethnic cleansing, murder and rape. Serbian people is victim as much as any other.
But that's not relevant here, relevant fact is that the same scenario happens in Ukraine - Russia wants to grab a hold of strategic ports and resources for their country because pro-kremlin regime is done for. Referendum is organized without the consent of central government and Crimea is now independent.
If that's wrong in your book then we should just bring back former republics back into Yugoslavia and/or Kosovo into Serbia :D
What bothers me are double standards: if that behavior is bad then by all means don't make precedents, all animals are equal.
Only thing is, breakdown of Yugoslavia and independence of Kosovo happen to be good for the west so they're cool. Crimean independence is bad for them so west is not cool with it.
Only thing is - they can't do anything now because they already sent the message to all separatists in the world that it's cool to ignore central government and go for it.
I think the breakdown of Yugoslavia was the right thing to do. Probably some part of Croatia (Republic of Krajina, but not necesarily all of it) and some part of Bosnia (Republika Srpska or at least a fraction of it) should have remained with Serbia.
Republika Srpska may still join Serbia some day, but Krajina is no longer inhabited by Serbs (or it's very low populated by Serbs) so chances are very low.

After all the conflicts between Croats, Serbs and Bosnians during the World War 2 those states should have never be put together to reenact Yugoslavia.

Romania (still) doesn't recognize Kosovo.
Posted March 24, 2014
Kosovo never was about strategic points nor resources. It's also not true that the independence of Kosovo was good for the west - at best the whole situation created a viable mess, with no easy solution out and those involved locally being unable to resolve it. Combined with the, at that time, recent past in this region...

Wrong - abundance of resources, after the independence rights for exploatation went to companies owned by people involved in the conflict (on the winning side). Also, a mighty fine position for a certain US military base.

Oh, and the west didn't had anything to do with the breakdown of Yugoslavia - that's something you guys managed to start on your own. In fact, quite a few western tourists fled without any forewarning of events to come. For most of the "western" guys, this really came out of nowhere.

Wrong, separatist movements were financed by groups from the west, it was well known that the people involved were Yugoslav expats with criminal background, weapons for separatists were sent into the country by Germany and other euro states, US was neutral at the beginning but quickly turned to separatist side when it was realized that the chaos could be exploited for their strategic gain. For most of the "western" leadership tension in Yugoslavia was a known fact.
All in all, peacefull breakdown of Yugoslavia was good only for the Yugoslav nations, war on the other hand was great for western political and economic interests.

About a reforming of Yugoslavia and / or Kosovo into Serbia - you had all the tools to do (respectively keep it) so, all the time. But it wasn't those tools your leaders picked.
Now, you still have those tools. If, how and when you'll be able to use it, I can't say - but that's something you guys have to achieve and no one else.

Well we tried to deal with our terrorists the way it should be done - with military but somehow it was not cool with the west so relentless bombing ensued :D I really don't know what "tools" you're talking about? All I see is dictate from EU what they want us to do and clowns here dancing to their tunes. I don't see anything apart from that but maybe you can enlighten me :)
Posted March 24, 2014
avatar
Starmaker: snip
Me, a Neo-Stalinist? Dunno, maybe. The definitions are kind of blurry. But all in all, a good post worthy of my +1.
avatar
Phc7006: There probably are some berkuts in those guarding the border posts. Blue/grey uniforms. They were filmed when they pledged their oath to the local gov.

The troops in green have the latest equipment of Russian ground forces. The Mi24/35 witnessed at the start of the force buildup bear IDs of a VVS unit. Some Gaz Tigr deployed seem to be linked to the 810th Naval Infantry . Other tigrs however, like the one registered КТ 21, last seen at Belbek, correspond to a guard unit from the Southern district . Could be 22nd brigade - spetsnaz . Other indication point to elements of the 7th Airborne and 78th storm. Add to that a train full of multiple rocket launchers , and sightings of Bastion and S300 systems, mobile radar systems ,... It's a rapid reaction force, nothing else
Hmm, all right, since it is clear you have much more knowledge of Russian army than I do, would you be so kind as to share the sources of this info so I could fill in the gaps in my knowledge? Thank you.
avatar
Trilarion: Did I already say that I'm scared. I guess I mentioned that later in this thread about one or two times. And in this context I couldn't care less for Crimea or what happens there as long as Russia doesn't attack somewhere else. Maybe that is the goal of the whole thing or maybe not.
You needn't be. It's not like Russia is going to attack anyone "because reasons".
avatar
Crosmando: Oh so I saw this article in the news about the new Crimean attorney general.... *rubs sweat from forehead*
You and all of Japan, lad. Join the (fan)club. :-)
avatar
AzureKite: I think "funny" is not a right word for such things.
Well, it would be funny if it wasn't so sad.
I'm curious about what you think of your current government. Our media picture them as incompetent, powerless, aggressive and outright dumb (with Yatsenyuk declaring that Ukraine is willing to take Russia's place in G8, Muzychko saying he will hang the prosecutor and Klichko... well, never mind), but that's small wonder. Propaganda at its finest, I assume.
How do you, a Ukrainian, view them?
Post edited March 24, 2014 by Sanjuro
Posted March 24, 2014
avatar
dr.zli: snip
Is Kosovo now part of Albania? Any other split off part now integrated in other countries, not there own? You guys, respectively your leaders, started each war, not the west. The west stepped in before you went at each other for quite some time? Not? Case closed, at least for me.
Yes, Kosovo needs to be looked at from a different angle. However, that's also true for every action taken by any western government - none wanted another Srebrenica, under all circumstances.

So many things wrong in your (very!) one-sided point of view, but I really have no intention to deepen this any further, even less so since this has nothing to do with the situation in the Ukraine.
Posted March 24, 2014
avatar
dr.zli: snip
avatar
Siannah: Is Kosovo now part of Albania? Any other split off part now integrated in other countries, not there own? You guys, respectively your leaders, started each war, not the west. The west stepped in before you went at each other for quite some time? Not? Case closed, at least for me.
Yes, Kosovo needs to be looked at from a different angle. However, that's also true for every action taken by any western government - none wanted another Srebrenica, under all circumstances.

So many things wrong in your (very!) one-sided point of view, but I really have no intention to deepen this any further, even less so since this has nothing to do with the situation in the Ukraine.
I implore you to sack me down with evidence, especially about Srebrenica which you heard for and learned all there is to learn about from cnn ;)
If you don't see one very similar scenario unfolding in Ukraine then I envy you ;) I'd like to live a life like that too
Posted March 24, 2014
I hear that the patriots in Donetsk (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-26716281) are wanting to escape the clutches of both the Soviets and the new Ukrainian Government and want to join our United Kingdom.

Looks like it's time to issue them all with British passports and send in the Paras to protect the locals from oppression!
Posted March 24, 2014
avatar
dr.zli: I implore you to sack me down with evidence, especially about Srebrenica which you heard for and learned all there is to learn about from cnn ;)
If you don't see one very similar scenario unfolding in Ukraine then I envy you ;) I'd like to live a life like that too
You're wrong about CNN, though I'd think my sources were a bit more differentiated and looking at it from more angles then Serbian media.

And no I don't see a similar scenario unfolding. At least I still HOPE it won't, though the possibilities are there. It depends a lot on how the Ukrainian and Russia go on from here.
Posted March 24, 2014
avatar
dr.zli: I implore you to sack me down with evidence, especially about Srebrenica which you heard for and learned all there is to learn about from cnn ;)
If you don't see one very similar scenario unfolding in Ukraine then I envy you ;) I'd like to live a life like that too
avatar
Siannah: You're wrong about CNN, though I'd think my sources were a bit more differentiated and looking at it from more angles then Serbian media.

And no I don't see a similar scenario unfolding. At least I still HOPE it won't, though the possibilities are there. It depends a lot on how the Ukrainian and Russia go on from here.
I don't read/watch serbian media :)
And it's the same in ukraine, look and enjoy, make some popcorn too :)
Posted March 24, 2014
avatar
AzureKite: One correction - Crimea didn't become independent. The most ridiculous and law-breaking thing they did is that they held an illegitimate referendum (cannot be initiated not on national level), which gave no choice (become part of Russia now or become almost independent and become part of Russia later) and moved Crimea from one country into another.
Yeah, it did become independent. It was done for very specific reasons so it could petition to join Russia as an independent nation.

Why? Because the ICJ judgement on Kosovo established the precedent that "international law contains no 'prohibition on declarations of independence'". So Russia did not, legally speaking, annex a part of Ukraine (against the UN charter) but accept the request of a newly independent country to join, which is permitted.

Now, that ICJ judgement is of utterly dreadful quality, relying as it does on something which was not specifically excluded (rather than actively included) in a UNSC resolution supplanting actual 'International Law' in the form of the UN charter, but it is what it is, and it says that declarations of independence are not inherently illegal.

There was no automatic provision for full independence later in the first option, indeed the question (in contrast to what was widely reported, same as with the misinformation about demographics re tartars) specifically stated that it would be 'within Ukraine'.
Posted March 24, 2014
avatar
Sanjuro: Well, it would be funny if it wasn't so sad.
I'm curious about what you think of your current government. Our media picture them as incompetent, powerless, aggressive and outright dumb (with Yatsenyuk declaring that Ukraine is willing to take Russia's place in G8, Muzychko saying he will hang the prosecutor and Klichko... well, never mind), but that's small wonder. Propaganda at its finest, I assume.
How do you, a Ukrainian, view them?
Temp gov't is just weak. Partially and not the least, because of all the economic and political pressure from outside and inside. You just can't fill in everything with new people, let alone competent in their jobs, and at the same time escape the sabotages and resistance from predecessors. And I don't mean just Cabinet of Ministers. As for the law enforcers and military... Well, I just think that in some situations you have to have guts. Guts, noone seems to have right now.

G8 thing was a joke. Noone should've treated that seriously. There are more important news to talk about.
Muzychko is also given too much notice. Like we didn't have idiots with guns before.
Klichko has certanly lost any chances to a President's office. Better be a sportsman, than a politic. Always thought that way about him.

avatar
Phasmid: There was no automatic provision for full independence later in the first option, indeed the question (in contrast to what was widely reported, same as with the misinformation about demographics re tartars) specifically stated that it would be 'within Ukraine'.
Autonomy with previous Constitution version meant simply a bit longer road to place the peninsula under a different banner. Wouldn't change much in the outcome.
Post edited March 24, 2014 by AzureKite
Posted March 24, 2014
avatar
AzureKite: Temp gov't is just weak. Partially and not the least, because of all the economic and political pressure from outside and inside. You just can't fill in everything with new people, let alone competent in their jobs, and at the same time escape the sabotages and resistance from predecessors. And I don't mean just Cabinet of Ministers. As for the law enforcers and military... Well, I just think that in some situations you have to have guts. Guts, noone seems to have right now.

G8 thing was a joke. Noone should've treated that seriously. There are more important news to talk about.
Muzychko is also given too much notice. Like we didn't have idiots with guns before.
Klichko has certanly lost any chances to a President's office. Better be a sportsman, than a politic. Always thought that way about him.
True, there are times when you have to prove you've got the guts. But the time to prove you've got the brains is always. What's the use of ousting a government if you've noone who can do their job better? Couldn't they have prepared better if they are indeed the leaders of the revolution and not mere pawns in someone else's game of thron... chess?

Well, the joke's a success, we''ve had a good laugh and are eagerly awaiting some new ones. I just hope they don't backfire. You guys have it rough enough as it is.
Ah, but that's not the problem here. The problem is he's not alone and close enough to power (well, was close enough. I read that he was shot this night. But the Right Sector remains a major power and is now a legit political party as well). We have Limonov and others as well, yes, but they are nowhere near real power so they are not much of a trouble.

Will there be another revolution if this government fails now, what do you think?
Posted March 25, 2014
avatar
Sanjuro: True, there are times when you have to prove you've got the guts. But the time to prove you've got the brains is always. What's the use of ousting a government if you've noone who can do their job better? Couldn't they have prepared better if they are indeed the leaders of the revolution and not mere pawns in someone else's game of thron... chess?
They weren't ready, because they weren't leaders. Yanukovich fleeing was as unexpected for them, as it was for the majority of people. He simply fled, as did most of his henchmen.

avatar
Sanjuro: Will there be another revolution if this government fails now, what do you think?
Beats me. A bit more than a month ago I wouldn't dare to think that there would be no President. Turns out that thievery bastard was also a weak coward. Anything can happen, but I'd give a new coup slighlty less chances.
Post edited March 25, 2014 by AzureKite
Posted March 25, 2014
avatar
Sanjuro: True, there are times when you have to prove you've got the guts. But the time to prove you've got the brains is always. What's the use of ousting a government if you've noone who can do their job better? Couldn't they have prepared better if they are indeed the leaders of the revolution and not mere pawns in someone else's game of thron... chess?
avatar
AzureKite: They weren't ready, becuase they weren't leaders. Yanukovich fleeing was as unexpected for them, as it was for the majority of people. He simply fled, as did most of his henchmen.
No offense, but I just have to ask: why fight if you don't know what to do with victory?
If they weren't leaders, how did it all come to pass? I don't buy it that thousands of people became suddenly very angry at the government, booked tickets to Kiev and for weeks besieged the president. Someone organized them, someone directed them, made sure they had enough food, tents and... stuff. If it weren't those who came to power now, who were they? Why don't they lead the country if they are so good at making things happen?
Pages:
1
25
50
53
54
55
56
57
100
118
This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionUkrainian Civil War in progress?(1767 posts) (1767 posts) 
(1767 posts)