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Sanjuro: Yet I wouldn't put it beyond likelihood that the self-defense guys actually used to be in the military or law enforcement. Soldiers opposing the self-proclaimed government, (ex-)members of "Berkut" - those are two possibilities and I'm sure I missed a couple more.
Then they would act as the true, loyal crimean army. Being proud to desert from the official ukrainian forces, vowing to defend Crimea and their home. They wouldn't mind being considered deserters in Ukraine even less so, after the voting.
In short: they wouldn't hide. Not their names, their alliances nor their face.
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/borowitzreport/2014/03/us-freezes-putins-netflix-account.html

Mildly relevant?
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Siannah: Then they would act as the true, loyal crimean army. Being proud to desert from the official ukrainian forces, vowing to defend Crimea and their home. They wouldn't mind being considered deserters in Ukraine even less so, after the voting.
In short: they wouldn't hide. Not their names, their alliances nor their face.
I'm not the best history student, never was, never claimed to be, so I'll have to ask a couple of things:
Am I correct to assume Switzerland had no civil wars for centuries (if there were any at all, that is)?
Do you therefore happen to know what a civil war is - not from history books, but from the stories of people who got caught in it?
The thing is, when there's a "normal" war, the relatives of soldiers fighting in it are usually in the country said soldiers protect and the fact that the enemy got to them means the army didn't do its job well enough. When we deal with a civil war, families can easily be (geographically speaking) on different sides of the "frontline" and sometimes a soldier can do nothing to protect those dear to him 'cause they happened to live in a place controlled by the other side. I don't want to badmouth those who overthrew the president, but let's say not all of them are nice and kind people.
Sapienti sat.
Post edited March 18, 2014 by Sanjuro
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Sanjuro: Sapienti sat.
You're definitely forgot the numerous interviews where those people confirm what they are Russian military personnel. Also otherwise you will have to deal with misbehavior of some military Russian command officers, who let simply traffic miltary equipment belonging to them on a really huge scale. This lacks needed qualities for a civil war still, despite all the tries.
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StingingVelvet: Well that's not the picture being painted by any Western media. Yes the EU buys about 30% of its gas from Russia, but everything I have read says they could make that up by buying from the US instead, or seeking alternatives. And besides, no one is saying natural gas has to be the source of the sanctions. In contrast everything I am reading says Russia's economy is extremely fragile, and that serious sanctions will really hurt them.

If you have some evidence to the contrary that isn't from Russian state media I'll be happy to read it.
This might be of interest to you then, if you haven't read it; Pesto's a trusted reporter. Doesn't necessarilly say it would be worse for the EU, but gives some useful figures.
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DarzaR: You're definitely forgot the numerous interviews where those people confirm what they are Russian military personnel.
It has nothing to do with forgetting, I've just seen none of those. Care to share the links?
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Sanjuro: snip
I'm kinda sad to say it, but it has come to a point, where it's pretty much useless talking with you.
Your whole point is - there's no prove for that. Guess what? You don't have any either. No one has and those who have, can't / won't speak about it. However, the indications point in one direction only and all "maybes" and "couldn't it be" won't change that. We're living in a different, more global world. Yes the victor writes the history - but only in HIS country. Not for the rest of the world. That time, is past us.
So, believe in various local militia working on a level with their organisations, that they manage to hold down all (trained) ukrainian military bases and their fleet. Believe in local militas with heavy military equipment and a plan to place them on strategic points. I doubt the majority of the world will see it that way.

Oh and about your argument of "not all of them nice and kind people" - I'm sure those running around crimea with facecovers and guns in arms, are all just random good guys....
Sapere aude.
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DarzaR: You're definitely forgot the numerous interviews where those people confirm what they are Russian military personnel.
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Sanjuro: It has nothing to do with forgetting, I've just seen none of those. Care to share the links?
Sure, http://ria.ru/world/20140301/997670771.html for example.
Or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Z8ymyhx8A#t=126 if you're somehow missed it.
Post edited March 18, 2014 by DarzaR
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Sanjuro: Fine, let's be blunt. Do we have a solid confirmation there were Russian troops (besides the Black Sea Navy of course) in Crimea? I somehow missed it with all the "they have Russian gear, speak Russian, so they are Russian soldiers". It's good they didn't have western gear and didn't speak English, I guess, 'cause that would be just too much for everyone to take.
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Aver: Yes, sure Russia could provide only gear, vehicles and weapons, but let's be honest it's not the case. They are perfectly trained and they know the drill. They act very calm in extremely tense situations like when they trying to capture Ukrianians bases. It's not something that self-defence forces could learn in few days.
The "men in green" behave like extremely well trained professionals. They are used to work together and the NCO's seem to know their job. Non commissionned officers are a good indicator imho. Just have a look at the Belbek Airbase event. The NCO there showed a degree of control above what you'd expect from a hastily built militia or even from reservist or regular infantry. Add to that their equipment ( some rifles I saw in their hands are only available to a very limited number of units ) , and i'd bet on FSB, VVS, naval infantry or shock units.

That's also why the murder of the tatar guy and the shooting party at simferopol look suspicious to me. It does not fit the picture given by these troops till now. I am afraid some ( on which side ? or is it on both sides ?) want to try to ignite the powder keg
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Siannah: I'm kinda sad to say it, but it has come to a point, where it's pretty much useless talking with you.
Your whole point is - there's no prove for that. Guess what? You don't have any either. No one has and those who have, can't / won't speak about it. However, the indications point in one direction only and all "maybes" and "couldn't it be" won't change that. We're living in a different, more global world. Yes the victor writes the history - but only in HIS country. Not for the rest of the world. That time, is past us.
So, believe in various local militia working on a level with their organisations, that they manage to hold down all (trained) ukrainian military bases and their fleet. Believe in local militas with heavy military equipment and a plan to place them on strategic points. I doubt the majority of the world will see it that way.

Oh and about your argument of "not all of them nice and kind people" - I'm sure those running around crimea with facecovers and guns in arms, are all just random good guys....
Sapere aude.
I never claimed to have any proof, have I not pointed out those were mere possibilities? "Dare to know", indeed, not "dare to claim to know".
The sad thing is not that everyone writes history nowadays, there's nothing wrong with that. Now, the fact that everyone writes his own version of it - that's more troubling. In a decade or two even your and American histories will have different points of view on what's happening now.
From the very beginning of the thread I decided to take nothing as "obvious", "beyond all doubt" or whatever unless there is solid proof - "until the dust settles down". I guess I already mentioned the "obvious facts" of Aug. 2008.
Thanks for tearing that bit out of context, but it really belonged in there. It served as an indication that a soldier's first and foremost desire is protection of those dear to him, and in this case retaining anonymity might serve exactly that purpose.
No matter. It was a pleasure to have you as an opponent.
Auf Wiedersehen.
Post edited March 18, 2014 by Sanjuro
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Sanjuro: From the very beginning of the thread I decided to take nothing as "obvious", "beyond all doubt" or whatever unless there is solid proof - "until the dust settles down". I guess I already mentioned the "obvious facts" of Aug. 2008.
Usually I agree on relying on prove. There are cases however, where you can tell that you'll never be able to do so and you'd have to go with what you have, even though that's just signs and indications instead of hard evidence.

When the dust is settled, who's to tell the truth? Unbiased observers? Held off at the borders. The ukrainian soldiers currently hold up in their bases? How could they know, they didn't left their base. Brave citizens of Crimea that aren't pro-russian and daring to speak? Yeah, right....
When the dust is settled, the one "truth" remaining is the russian version. As unbiased, truthful and without any propaganda at all in it, as we all know it.
You're right, I'm glad we'll get a different version of history in our books.
I've seen this story pop up in a few places:
Ukraine's gold reserves transferred to the U.S

Now it could well be complete bull but it seems to be gaining momentum and credibility. To clarify, I really don't know. However, the British media have been so terribly biased, that I wouldn't put it past them to bury the story.

This headline:
Crimea crisis: Fears of war grow after killing of Ukrainian officer at military base in Simferopol

has been amended as it previously stated that: Crimea in Crises as Russian troops kill Ukrainian Officer.

All this is doing is two-fold. 1) The Brits with very short memories are in uproar over Russia muscling in on an EU country OR 2) People are coming out and sympathising with Russia due to the awfully biased media coverage and the fact that it's been peaceful considering the obvious tensions.
Post edited March 18, 2014 by pigdog
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pigdog: I've seen this story pop up in a few places:
Ukraine's gold reserves transferred to the U.S

Now it could well be complete bull but it seems to be gaining momentum and credibility. To clarify, I really don't know. However, the British media have been so terribly biased, that I wouldn't put it past them to bury the story.
The US holds a lot of countries' gold, I don't think that story would be shocking or weird.
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pigdog: I've seen this story pop up in a few places:
Ukraine's gold reserves transferred to the U.S

Now it could well be complete bull but it seems to be gaining momentum and credibility. To clarify, I really don't know. However, the British media have been so terribly biased, that I wouldn't put it past them to bury the story.
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StingingVelvet: The US holds a lot of countries' gold, I don't think that story would be shocking or weird.
Wars and rumors of war. God help us and God help Ukraine
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Aver: According to official data there are 383k people in Sewastopol, but there were 474k of votes. Russians really love their right to vote. Some of them did it even twice.
Funny how the simple mistake of one newswriter (he write 1,724,563, when it was said 1,524,563) get popular, even after source of calculations admited mistake. Is there atleast one news site who added that 123% was an error?