Yes, you're right. And just because of that White Europe and white europeans are degenerating. Instead of Roman Empire, Crusades and Paracelsus they have hamburgers, iPhones and juvenile justice. So keep on devouring. Long live the stability.

Russia might deal with consequences, yes, but that was not the question. It wasn't even about countries or governments. I was (and still am) curious, how many people are (in a particular person's opinion) less important than what the politics want?
How many affected lives would you, Siannah, consider a reasonable price for making a point in a political debate?

Why don't you ask Putin that? It's not like there is one side of this conflict.

To hell with politics. I am not asking Putin, Merkel, Tusk, Obama or other politics. I'm asking you now. All of you, anyone who's willing to share HIS/HER personal opinion.

I'd go with a reasonable solution by talking on a table anyday. Be it the two ukrainian sides internally, be it Russian / Crimean / Ukrainian / whoever government right now. So the most obvious answer by propably most here is, preferable none.
However, when you have a bear in your neighborhood and he doesn't behave, you react. This usually doesn't lead to a good outcome, yes. But sticking your head in the sand and do nothing, hoping he stops on his own isn't a viable solution either.

If you want any other answer or even specific numbers, none can really say. It's like poker and you can only guess the other ones card or risk he's willing to take.

Today there was a first big anti-annexation protest in Moscow, by last count from independent sources around 50.000 people came. On the pro-annexation demonstration that was happening at the same time 15.000 people (by independent sources) came to support Putin in his endeavour to annex Crimea. It seems a lot of russians are against it at the moment.

A fair point. Why fight when we can talk? Yes, I would like to think that's the way the majority feels. Surely it solves nothing.
The question is, did the bear come there on its own, or was it your dog Snoopy who ran into the forest, barked at some wildlife and, after getting on the bear's nerves long enough for it to roar back, fled whimpering to your backyard hoping the bear wouldn't follow? And that is the problem. We do not know what cards the players have, all we see is the cards already laid on the table. One can hold, one can raise, one can fold. All there is to help is one's intuition (analysts in this case) to tell if the risk's worth it. But then again, we aren't the players here, so this is not our game, All we can do is tell "our" player if we like the way the game's going.

All in all, a cautious, weighted diplomatic answer. Care to become a politician someday?
From who are your sources "independent"? Mine tell me it was around 3,000 people. 50,000 were declared (like, planned) to gather.
I'll check this more thoroughly of course, but there might be a "slight" misunderstanding here.

If even one of ex-USSR countries was really prospering, there would be no need to force others to stay within the grasp, be it by assigning puppets as rulers or moving armies. This USSR-ish way of thinking is what pushes some countries away, instead of drawing them closer. Unfortunately, USSR is what some people still want to go back to, which is the road to nowhere, IMO.

I don't find that comparison fitting. IF the Ukranians would have send additional troops into Crimea or actually threaten the russian speaking part of it (language law is NOT a threat - it's inappropriate and stupid but, as mentioned, something for the table) THEN actions from the russian side would have been a given.

But as it stands now with foreign troops securing Crimea and the voting, holding up / bossing around the official ukrainian forces, the seizure of the ukrainian fleet, the (proven false) information about self defence units being responsible.... yes, this is an invasion and (at the moment pending) may turn into annexation. And no voting will legitimate that in any way for Mr. Putin, no way he can sell this. He may think he can pull off the same as with Georgia and yes, maybe he can. But trust is a currency hard to earn and easy to loose - he already lost a lot and he may loose it all, be it as an international partner or with his neighbors.
The odds are stacked up against the Ukraine and Russia. Claiming the Ukraine afterwards as responsible for this situation, is something Mr. Putin can't hope to achieve in his wildest dreams. Maybe in Russia, but not the whole rest of the world. After all, Putin send troops, the Ukraine didn't.

As an individual, you can only hope right now that none has stacked up more then he can afford to loose and feeling the need to go all-in.
And no, I'll never go for politician. I'm not intelligent enough, suck at marketing, am way to stubborn and don't bend that well. :p

Still don't have enough info on Crimean situation, sorry, won't discuss it. In 2008 the mass-media was screaming about Russian tanks destroying Tskhinval and who would've guessed the tanks would turn out to be Georgian. I'm still waiting for dust to settle down. Not gonna happen anytime soon, it seems.

I think it's probably best for everyone if Crimea goes to Russia so the rest of Ukraine can move West like they want. However I also think it's important for people like Putin to know there are repercussions to invading sovereign countries without international backing (and yes that applies to us when we do it too).

You're asking what cost is acceptable to the common person and I would guess that's a very small number. However governments have to think beyond what a common person would and see global ramifications. If Putin annexing part of a neighboring State is ignored by Europe then he'll just keep doing it. That's the theory, proven out by centuries of history. There has to be a cost to prevent endless repetition.


Rampant consumerism certainly has its downsides, but I would take it over poverty damn near every day of the week.

Yeah it was said 3.000 people by russian police and we always know that police in every country always downplays the actual numbers of protesters. Organizators of the protest counted 50.000 and several other organizations that were present.

Just as a curiosity what do you think about the beginning of russian invasion in to south Ukraine since several russian troops have now been confirmed to have taken over Strilkove, Khersons'ka oblast, Ukraine which is not part of Crimea and is part of south Ukraine it seems now that Putin going to go for whole Ukraine.

Let's begin from the start (and keep in mind that father of my father was a 100% "ukranian" born in Yelisavetgrad, now Kirovograd, and my roots by father line lead to Zaporozhskaya Sich).

1) There's NO Russian, Ukranian and Belorussian nationality, they are the ONE divided nation. They have ONE generic genetics, history AND LANGUAGE. "Ukranian language" is an artificial thing mostly made by Shevchenko (although his personal diary is written in pure "russian").
2) Ukraine often forgets that it is obliged to Moscovia in very fact of its existence (I' m talking about Khmelnitsky and his life full of eternal betrayal of everyone). And we won't dive deep into history in times of the War for Halych-Volynia Succession.
And if we talk about USSR, so it were "bloody commies" who gifted about 75% of modern ukranian territory to UkSSR so please - shut your mouth about it.
3) Russians in their turn also often forget about Kievan Rus' and the source of future Moscovia.
4) I'm nationalist and I have respect for all other nationalists from all other nations. But "ukranian nationalism" builds itself ONLY on negation of russian nature of Ukraine. If you don't like the word "russian" replace it with whatever you like but to reflect the historical truth.
5) Only dumbasses could name the events in Ukraine "revolution". It's a plot of international gang of oligarchs against other international gang of oligarchs. Sharks are fighting for prey.
6) Only dumbasses could applause this bald thief Putin's plan of Crimea annexation.

If it would be "revolution", so the victoriouos masses should proclaim their solidarity with brother russian people, suffering under the yoke of local Moscovian international gang of oligarchs.
Instead of that, we see the local Ukranian international gang of oligarchs licking the ass of euro-american local international gang of oligarchs and threathing the moscovian gang that is threating the ukranian gang in its turn and so on... While the common people are PROUD for all this situation. They are "independent"! Fools...

People of Ukraine lost their chance to throw the yoke off because the puppet masters calculate everything BEFORE and in advance. So if now Gods will save us from the idiotic war between the parts of ONE nation, the situation will be worse than before nonetheless.

Maybe, some idiots could see "russian chauvinism" in my words. So I could tell to these idiots to go back to school and learn history. Now in Ukraine I see people who know NOTHING. There are many of such people everywhere, in Russia too. But in Ukraine they show the crying ignorance, they scream about their ignorance on every street and on every site in the Net.