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General discussionUkrainian Civil War in progress?(1767 posts) (1767 posts) 
(1767 posts) 
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This is my favourite topic
Posted March 10, 2014
They started kidnapping journalists. Just to be more classy: http://www.osce.org/fom/116294
Posted March 10, 2014
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DarzaR: Well, decide it for yourself. Spoken plan is to keep the army behind woman and children, not in front of them, so "other side" wouldnt dare to shoot.
WTF? Which army is hiding behind women and children?
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Aver: They started kidnapping journalists. Just to be more classy: http://www.osce.org/fom/116294
It takes huge balls to be a journalist nowadays...
Post edited March 10, 2014 by monkeydelarge
Posted March 10, 2014
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Aver: Well, European leaders before WWII took your advice. If we will be nice for Hitler, give him everything he want, he will be nice for us too. He defended German rights too. And we know how it ended.
I think I might take the Hitler parallels a bit more seriously if you hadn't started suggesting countries ethnic cleanse Russians a few posts back- but with a nice smiley, to make it all OK. Plus, Svoboda, Right Sector etc.

But in any case as soon as you start talking about ethnic cleansing you're giving Putin exactly what you think he wants- an excuse to start meddling. Don't give the excuse and it makes it a lot harder to justify. In this case though it was and has been clear that there has been extensive anti Ukraine sentiment in Crimea for decades dating back to the USSR, and they'd either be independent or part of Russia if they had their way. And were Ukraine's constitution specifically written not to make secession impossible.

Putin has no leverage over NATO. His words are backed with nuclear weapons, but so are theirs. He knows perfectly well that NATO will not fight for Ukraine because it isn't important enough, if he went after a NATO member they would have to respond. His strategy is predicated on realpolitik and not overplaying his hand.
Posted March 10, 2014
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DarzaR: Well, decide it for yourself. Spoken plan is to keep the army behind woman and children, not in front of them, so "other side" wouldnt dare to shoot.
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monkeydelarge: WTF? Which army is hiding behind women and children?
Its from Putin's live press-conference. Directly from his mouth.
Posted March 10, 2014
It amazes me that the UK media is relegating the situation in Ukraine below the trial of Oscar Pistorius. Whilst an intriguing case, it's nowhere near as vital as the delicate situation in Kiev and Crimean region.
Posted March 10, 2014
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Aver: Well, European leaders before WWII took your advice. If we will be nice for Hitler, give him everything he want, he will be nice for us too. He defended German rights too. And we know how it ended.
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Phasmid: I think I might take the Hitler parallels a bit more seriously if you hadn't started suggesting countries ethnic cleanse Russians a few posts back- but with a nice smiley, to make it all OK. Plus, Svoboda, Right Sector etc.
Dunno if it really matter for you or no, but some people who pose as ucrainian pro-russian activists now, actually are members (some are former) of organizations, what was declared as racist/fascist under russian law. Now those people pose as fierce proud antifascists. Well, tbh "fair" ucrainians nazis at least not huge liars.
Post edited March 10, 2014 by DarzaR
Posted March 10, 2014
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summitus: Wow ... must be embarrassing to be a Russian at the moment ...
I never understood this way of thinking. You attach yourself to what the UK government does when you aren't even involved?

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awalterj: Those men posturing around in uniforms without insignia must be so terribly proud of themselves.
This I don't get either. Apparently a soldier is acceptable as long as he is loyal to a country but not a corporation? Surely the action of each invididual soldier or group of soldiers are to be judged independently from whom they work for.
Posted March 10, 2014
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summitus: Wow ... must be embarrassing to be a Russian at the moment ...
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Nirth: I never understood this way of thinking. You attach yourself to what the UK government does when you aren't even involved?

Actually you get attached in some way for it, yes, especially if your government declared what it acted in interests of it's citizens. You know, for example, many people dislike Germans and Americans; not because this certain people are bad, but essentially due to acts of they (democratic, so supported by people) governments. It could be different way in monarchies ofc, as your ruler can do anything he want with his land and resources, and you are not in blame in this case (thus probably you missed it).

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awalterj: Those men posturing around in uniforms without insignia must be so terribly proud of themselves.
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Nirth: This I don't get either. Apparently a soldier is acceptable as long as he is loyal to a country but not a corporation? Surely the action of each invididual soldier or group of soldiers are to be judged independently from whom they work for.

Just its extremely hard for realization, as its always turn to the case "im just followed the order of other guy". So you have only one guilty in result, and that "guilty" guy in fact did not performed what he's sued for.
Post edited March 10, 2014 by DarzaR
Posted March 10, 2014
Only if the people were directly involved (which they likely weren't) I agree.

As for your other reply I don't understand what you're trying to say, that phrase can be used as an excuse for either parties' involvement so I don't see how that makes a difference.
Posted March 10, 2014
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pigdog: It amazes me that the UK media is relegating the situation in Ukraine below the trial of Oscar Pistorius. Whilst an intriguing case, it's nowhere near as vital as the delicate situation in Kiev and Crimean region.
I suppose the reason they're doing it, is that this has become a foregone conclusion. Russia will occupy Crimea, there will be a partially democratic vote, but under fear conditions, in which it will vote to suceed. This will be objected to, nothing will come of it, and things will carry on. No news here, just expected events.
Posted March 10, 2014
So, for example, if Sweden King, with parliament will order extermination of, say, Aland population, and half-of-Finland, and if after it youll hear something like "ah, he's a Swede, those guys famous for extermination of much people, i recall"; youll proudly will answer them "no, it was only our government decision to do it, so ill advise what you wouldnt spread it on me, as im mere Sweden citizen, who hadnt ordered it". And you suppose youll get "oh sorry man, we're indeed was so wrong here, forgive us" after?

2. And ofc it can be used for any side, what had made it looks different way from a start?
Post edited March 10, 2014 by DarzaR
Posted March 10, 2014
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DarzaR: So, for example, if Sweden King, with parliament will order extermination of, say, Aland population, and half-of Finland, and if after youll hear something like "ah, he's a Swede, those guys famous for extermination of much people, i recall"; youll proudly will answer them "no, it was only our govermnet decision to do it, so ill advise what you wouldnt spread it on me, as im mere Sweden citizen, who hadnt ordered it". And you suppose youll get "oh sorry man, we're indeed was so wrong here, forgive us" after?
Proudly? No, I'm not proud for my country and in fact, I look down on both patriotism and pride in general, they are both very poor attributes humans can have, at least in extreme proportions which they too often become. As for what I would answer I do no know but I would hope I would have something diplomatic to say because I wouldn't expect something rational in return. Nevertheless, what you're suggesting is basically the equivalent of racism but the difference isn't race but nationality. How is that at all positive? If some country would attack Sweden I would certainly not blame its citizens for that decision (unless they're directly involved in the decision or support it but this quickly becomes a grey area).

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DarzaR: 2. And ofc it can be used for any side, what had made it looks different way from a start?
Could you explain what you meant? I didn't see any arguments for either sides.
Post edited March 10, 2014 by Nirth
Posted March 10, 2014
Where i had sayd what its positive of any sort? Its just a negative backfire you could get for actions of some other people from your country, so i hardly can see how it could be easily overlooked for individual. It was about "i never was able to get this way of thinking" only.

Hmm, there was no arguments for a sides in this case from me, probably thats why. I just sayd what its roughly unachievable to "judge any actions of soldier or group individually from whom they work for", even if its looks fair.
Post edited March 10, 2014 by DarzaR
Posted March 10, 2014
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DarzaR: Where i had sayd what its positive of any sort? Its just a negative backfire you could get for actions of some other people from your country, so i hardly can see how it could be easily overlooked for individual. It was about "i never was able to get this way of thinking only".
I won't argue that it won't become a problem but the problem is that people shouldn't attach themselves too much to a country, at least not to the point that one would blame everything "tainted" by it for an action one would find negative.

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DarzaR: Hmm, there was no arguments for a sides in this case from me, probably thats why. I just sayd what its roughly unachievable to "judge any actions of soldier or group individually from whom they work for", even if its looks fair.
Fair enough.
Posted March 10, 2014
Im fully agree with all of this, just im talked not about ideal world, but one, what is looks to be around at this moment.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionUkrainian Civil War in progress?(1767 posts) (1767 posts) 
(1767 posts)