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General discussionUkrainian Civil War in progress?(1767 posts) (1767 posts) 
(1767 posts) 
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This is my favourite topic
Posted March 04, 2014
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Trilarion: So, is it still double standards?
Yes, sorry.
Once you have overthrown constitutional government (how crooked it was is another question, and I agree, it was crooked), you lose right to criticize others for unconstitutional actions.
It doesn't matter if you represent majority (which I highly doubt) or not.

I said before, revolutions open gates to Hell.
People in Maidan didn't wanted to stay calm and wanted to overthrow Yanukovych no matter what (and after he agreed on the deal with opposition, by the way) - fine,
but then don't be so surprised when people in Crimea and other regions will say "to hell with the constitution" too, and even ask other countries for military help.

Why not? This is their country too. But suddenly, because they are of Russian descent, they don't qualify as Ukrainian citizens and must go back to Russia, despite the fact that they were living there for generations.

And again: I am not trying to justify Russia. I said before, and say it again: this was too hasty response to obvious provocation.
Post edited March 04, 2014 by wbrk
Posted March 04, 2014
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F4LL0UT: I didn't say that because I do not acknowledge that this is actually about ethnicity nor that Russia has any responsibility for people who are "ethnically Russian" while they are Ukrainian citizens. Whether it was the Russian Empire, the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany or now modern Russia, all these regimes claimed some sort of responsibility for people living beyond their borders solely based on propaganda and unproven facts to justify annexation or other political influence.
Exactly this ^^. I have a lot of friends in Crimea and none of them had any sort of language-related issues ever, so language law (which, by the way, wasn't cancelled yet) is not an problem at all. Moreover it was in place only for last 2 or 3 years, while russian schools in Crimea exist as long as i remember myself, so any claims about that are pure nonsense (to those unaware - mentioned language law was about making russian language more official that it was. It hadn't changed anything at all, so that was purely populistic law ). Also, no one really asked Putin to come to Crimea - it's pure invasion, with russian army (weapon of pro-russian activists in Crimea turned out to be available ONLY in Russia, they didn't even bother to re-equip before pretending to be activists :) ).

One outstanding propaganda example is the video that had been made public by Russia TV stations showing that people of Eastern Ukraine are leaving country in a huge rush turned out to be showing WESTERN border between Ukraine and Poland, which due to business relations is very active usually. Of course it worked well for Russian people who don't know where the hell Shegyni are, but for everyone in western ukraine it was more of the "what the fsck they are showing" moments :)
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wbrk: People in Maidan didn't wanted to stay calm and wanted to overthrow Yanukovych no matter what (and after he agreed on the deal with opposition, by the way) - fine,
but then don't be so surprised when people in Crimea and other regions will say "to hell with the constitution" too, and even ask other countries for military help.

Why not? This is their country too. But suddenly, because they are of Russian descent, they don't qualify as Ukrainian citizens and must go back to Russia, despite the fact that they were living there for generations.
to obvious provocation.
That's actually a total BS:) I know why you think so, because i watch russian TV too, but as a person who can see things on my own in here i can confirm that's not even close to what happens there.

Again , no one was doing anything to people of Crimea, there are no any fascist in the goverment and no one really gives a shit about language you speak and are you Russian or not. And none of those people asked Russia for help, that's pure invasion.
Post edited March 04, 2014 by shimgwin
Posted March 04, 2014
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shimgwin: I know why you think so, because i watch russian TV too, but as a person who can see things on my own in here i can confirm that's not even close to what happens there.

Again , no one was doing anything to people of Crimea, there are no any fascist in the goverment and no one really gives a shit about language you speak and are you Russian or not. And none of those people asked Russia for help, that's pure invasion.
No. Sorry to disappoint you.
I don't watch TV, at least my opinion is not formed on that, but on Russian internet media, Ukrainian internet media (including youtube channels, btw) and Western (EU, UK, USA, China) media. And on my personal knowledge of History.

But it seems that it's a popular trend that people in Russia are thinking in labels such as "fascist", blindly believe in anything that's on TV and support anything Putin is doing.

I assure you, there a lot of people (in media) who call Putin bloodthirsty tyrant who wants to start a war (well, you can check that yourself).

And on language: there's difference between "de-facto" and "de-jure".
Post edited March 04, 2014 by wbrk
Posted March 04, 2014
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shimgwin: ...
Anyway, if you Ukrainians aren't really anti-russian nationalists and only want a non-corrupt and democratic country, you have all the means to do that, and you should do it now. There was talk of abolishing russian language, and now there's talk it won't happen. You can have new democratic elections in a country where a not so small russian minority exists and it should be respected (as I'm sure it is and it will be by most, since you say you have russian friends). Putin hasn't invaded Ukraine yet, he only sent soldiers to Crimea (and it doesn't need having been planned for ages, they have a military base there). Just get rid of the nationalistic propaganda on your part and do the things the democratic way.

All this is only possible Ukrainian and the Russians can get along together, obviously (personally I can't understand why you couldn't made exception for the usual extremists). And if (Ukrainian) russians don't feel too offended for the treatment they've received until now (threat of banning their language and so on).
Posted March 04, 2014
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wbrk: No. Sorry to disappoint you.
Nah, sorry if it sounded like i wan't to start an argument with you. Regarding language law - you're making it too big of a deal imho - it's not, and it never was a problem here, either it was de-facto or de-jure. In fact it's not even a problem to find a russian school (more than one) even in Lviv, which has only about 10% of russian-speaking population, so talking about areas with more than 60% of russian-speaking people doesn't even make sense here:) - obviously there is no problem with language there, at all.
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shimgwin: ...
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mg1979: All this is only possible Ukrainian and the Russians can get along together, obviously (personally I can't understand why you couldn't made exception for the usual extremists). And if (Ukrainian) russians don't feel too offended for the treatment they've received until now (threat of banning their language and so on).
Trust me, only politicians are making it look like there are any threats to any nation or language either in Ukraine or Russia :) I'm a russian-speaking guy in a most nationalistic pro-ukrainian city in Ukraine and for last 20+ years never had problem with that anywhere.
Post edited March 04, 2014 by shimgwin
Posted March 04, 2014
A line I read on one of the websites I visit, which I think describes all that happened in Kiev: "Everyone talks about freedom, but only few fight for it."
Noone ever denied people from any part of the country to come to Kiev and voice their own opinion. It's a capital and a main stage for such things. East may have jobs and not enough time, but winter in Crimea is mostly dead season from the perspective of income for tourist based businesses.
Post edited March 04, 2014 by AzureKite
Posted March 04, 2014

But suddenly, because they are of Russian descent, they don't qualify as Ukrainian citizens and must go back to Russia, despite the fact that they were living there for generations.
Sorry, just realized, I should have worded it better, it was mostly addressed to few people here saying that people of Russian descent should just go to Russia (and people of Tatar descent, I presume, should go somewhere else too). That they have no right of national identity. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. Borders do move more quickly than people.

And if anyone got impression that I was talking about interim government departing people from Ukraine (which would definitely sound like propaganda) - I apologize.
Post edited March 04, 2014 by wbrk
Posted March 04, 2014
Ukrainians need to rent Red Dawn, not the remake, the original for tips on beating those pesky Russians. We'll be happy to send you Charlie Sheen and Patrick Swayze to assist in your defenses. If it worked for a small town in the US, a large population in Ukrain should have no problems. WOLVERINES!
Post edited March 04, 2014 by jjsimp
Posted March 04, 2014
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jjsimp: Ukrainians need to rent Red Dawn, not the remake, the original for tips on beating those pesky Russians. We'll be happy to send you Charlie Sheen and Patrick Swayze to assist in your defenses. If it worked for a small town in the US, a large population in Ukrain should have no problems. WOLVERINES!
Good movie. Unfortunately the remake is garbage.
Posted March 04, 2014
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wbrk: Yes, sorry.
Once you have overthrown constitutional government (how crooked it was is another question, and I agree, it was crooked), you lose right to criticize others for unconstitutional actions.
It doesn't matter if you represent majority (which I highly doubt) or not.

I said before, revolutions open gates to Hell....
I think the flaw is that one unconstitutional action is probably not worth the same as another. They just might not be on the same scale.

Has the own population the right to get rid of their president? Difficult to say. But is it really on the same level as an invasion?

Okay, I have to say that revolutions are mostly bad, although I used to live in eastern germany and thank god our regime was destroyed 25 years ago. Luckiest moment in my life probably! But then it wasn't a democracy I lived in. I would take part in this revolution again everyday. So no, not every revolution open gates to hell and especially if you do not live in a democracy people have a right to try a revolution.

In the Ukraine, situation is probably a bit better although corruption is widespread too. How to you defend yourself against corrupt politicians? Going to the street should be a viable option if justice is not available otherwise.

I know it probably still sounds fishy and therefore some will say that Yanukovich should come back. But this train already departed. No chance for him to ever be accepted again. He's just played in the PR game.

Ukrainian wide elections soon, restoration and clear improvement of the democratic system (try a less presidential system and with a stronger and more independent justice) and no russian troops on ukrainian territory while a secession vote is guaranteed. That might be a possible road to the future and my personal favorite too. But let's see.
Post edited March 04, 2014 by Trilarion
Posted March 04, 2014
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wbrk: Once you have overthrown constitutional government (how crooked it was is another question, and I agree, it was crooked), you lose right to criticize others for unconstitutional actions.
Hahaha. Then US should nuke Moscow. After all no one should criticize them for "unconstitutional action", if Russia did something "unconstitutional" first.

I must say that I love phrases that Russians using to say "invasion" or "occupy". For them they are "unconstitutional actions", "interventions" and "helping".
Post edited March 04, 2014 by Aver
Posted March 04, 2014
I "just" realized it's the year 2014, and how that's hilarious in hindsight.
Posted March 04, 2014
My brief views:

The Kiev protesters showed incredible resilience and bravery to overthrow the government that had just about nailed his colours to Russia.

However:

The government was aligning with Russia and from a financial perspective, it could be argued that it was for the good of Ukraine. Russia have both financial muscle and are THE major providers of energy resource.

But:

The Crimean region and other parts of the East have a large pro-Russia contingent and therefore, their occupying of government buildings is just as valid as the protesters in Kiev. This occurred before the Russian military became involved.

The Russians are naturally concerned because the Crimean and Eastern regions do have Russian military interests. I think they have every right to be. All of the G7 countries would be concerned if this occurred on their doorstep.

MEDIA:

In the UK, the media coverage (especially the BBC) can only be described as propaganda.

Kiev was: Brave protesters vs Police brutality. Digging a little deeper, there were some horrific acts directed at the police

Crimea/Eastern protesters: Terrorists storm government buildings. Hang on, how's that different from Kiev (but in reverse)

Reporter from BBC in Crimea interviewed two ladies in their 80's who said they supported the EU stance. It was suggested that these two were an accurate representation of opinion in the region.

William Haigh said (something along the lines of) Russia should not involve or influence the sovereignty of Ukraine. The same man who voted that the UK should invade Iraq.

Then when the US and UK take the high moral ground this story seems to have been cast aside:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26079957

It was particularly interesting to hear a US diplomat, a Victoia Nuland, suggest that the region can be "shaped" with the UN. To quote:
"So that would be great, I think, to help glue this thing and to have the UN help glue it and, you know, Fuck the EU."

===============================

Finally and I applaud and thank anyone who has taken time to read my views - my genuine concerns are for Ukraine's nationals and I hope there can be a peaceful resolution that benefits the population.
Posted March 04, 2014
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pigdog: Crimea/Eastern protesters: Terrorists storm government buildings. Hang on, how's that different from Kiev (but in reverse)
But those "protesters" stormed Crimean autonomy buildings. Those weren't buildings of government from Kiev. Those were buildings of government chosen by people of Crimea.

New Crimean Prime Minister assigned by them was from party Pro-Russian party that had less than 5% of votes in last election. He must truly represent voice of people.

Also those protesters took over official Crimean TV station that weren't ran by Ukrainians, but by Russian speaking citizens of Crimea. Now any pro-Ukrainian protesters in Crimea are being arrested on sight.

You won't hear any voice of people Crimea, but only things that Russia want to be heard. According to polls Before conflict majority of people there didn't want to join Russia.
Posted March 04, 2014
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Crosmando: And Ukrainians (or any group of people) do not get to overthrow their government to make a political point. You wait till elections like every civilized country. Everyone lives under a social contract to live in a country, which includes both rights AND responsibilities.

"Revolutionary" and mob-rule bullshit is a cancer on humanity.
Whatever we might think about the protests when the previous President had his own people shot, was voted out by his ministers and then fled the country, the new government became the legitimate government.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionUkrainian Civil War in progress?(1767 posts) (1767 posts) 
(1767 posts)