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General discussionUkrainian Civil War in progress?(1767 posts) (1767 posts) 
(1767 posts) 
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This is my favourite topic
Posted March 02, 2014
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ktchong: As a Chinese in America, this new development is actually a good new for me.

The fact is Americans always have to have an enemy. Americans always have to hate on some foreign "evil": the Russians, or the Muslims, or the illegal Mexicans, or Chinese. Americans also have very limited attention span, so they can only focus on hating one particular enemy at a time. Just before 9/11 happened, China - and Chinese by association - were the target for American jingoism. The US media was hating on China. Everyone in America (the white majority) was bashing China. Chinese in American -- even Chinese who were born outside China and had never been to China -- often felt under siege. I often had to pretend to be Korean so I did not have to deal with the hostility and suspicions, (and because my last name is "Chong", which could also be a Korean last name, so I could get away with telling people that I was Korean.)

On 9/11 when Muslim terrorists flew a plane into the Twin Towers, I actually felt... relief. I immediately knew Americans would redirect all their hatred towards Muslims and Arabs, which was good for me. That meant Americans would be too busy hating on Muslims/Arabs to be bothered with with China/Chinese. And I was correct. For years, America has focused their hatred and hostility towards Muslims and Arabs, and they have mostly left Chinese alone. However, in the past two to three years, America has started shifting its attention back to China again. Which has really made me feel uneasy.

Now that Russians will become America's enemy no. 1 again, I feel like Chinese in America have dodged another bullet. So yippie for me. It will suck to be "Ruskies" in America, but that won't be my problem. Hey, as long as it's not me.
I have not met one single American all my life who hates Chinese people or fears them. I think you encountering Americans in this country who hate you or fear you because you are Chinese could be you just having some bad luck in your life. And you sound like a sociopath for saying "On 9/11 when Muslim terrorists flew a plane into the Twin Towers, I actually felt... relief." A lot of innocent people died in horrible ways when that happened... Burned alive or forced to commit suicide by jumping out of windows and falling to their deaths to avoid being burned alive... Of course, if you go around talking like a sociopath, a lot of Americans are going to fear you or hate you. Yes, a lot of Americans hate Muslims. Yes, a lot of Americans hate Russians. But Chinese people? No way. In fact, several big American movies were edited to prevent the Chinese from looking bad. In fact, no anti Chinese propaganda is made here in the USA because the USA doesn't want to piss off the Chinese market. For example, the latest Red Dawn movie. In the original story they had, the villains were the Chinese. They decided they don't want to piss off the Chinese market so they picked the North Koreans to be the villains of the story. Making the movie extremely stupid because North Korea could never invade the USA.
Post edited March 02, 2014 by monkeydelarge
Posted March 02, 2014
THe level of knowledge in this discussion is beneath contempt, frankly.
Posted March 02, 2014
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dudalb: THe level of knowledge in this discussion is beneath contempt, frankly.
Can you recommend a solid overview?
Posted March 02, 2014
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dudalb: THe level of knowledge in this discussion is beneath contempt, frankly.
This thread has multiple discussions going on. And if you find the level of knowledge in a discussion(or the level of knowledge in the entire thread), beneath contempt and share this thought with us, you should explain yourself too or you are just trolling...
Post edited March 02, 2014 by monkeydelarge
Posted March 02, 2014
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KiNgBrAdLeY7: 2) Was NATO and European Union somehow involved in undermining current events? Both are quite the overlords and puppeteers (my country lives this fact in its people's skin, literally), and their secret/intelligence agencies are as of late being continuously heard of, for causing underground commotion to foreign places...
NATO wouldn't even dare to try putting a foot down.
EU politicians might have been on the Maidan, but this is more of having a close look at the situation at hand, maybe paired with giving political support for a peaceful protest, but cetainly not to stir up a rebellion or provoking a war.
European intelligence agencies may work together on a level with each other, but there simply is no EU intelligence agency - they are commited to their own country, not the EU. Even the thought of a combined effort of european intelligence agencies on the Maidan is unthinkable. The Snowden case is testament for that.

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KiNgBrAdLeY7: 3) How on earth could some people, having been allied with Russians for decades, simply want to depart from them, and not only depart from them, but strike deals and bargains with their sworn enemies, on top of that, too?
Opening up to the EU is not joining them. As much as some Ukrainians would want that, as much speaking against it. Problem (as far as I know) is, both ways seem to be somewhat mutually exclusive to each other, where it should be possible for the Ukraine to get stronger ties with the EU (like a trade agreement) without disbanding their strong ties with Russia.
... and please stop the nonsense about "sworn enemies". The cold war ended some time ago in case you didn't noticed...

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KiNgBrAdLeY7: 4) Don't Ukranians notice how the strong nations of the European union, stomp flat upon, loot and condemn, the weakest countries? Like Italy, Spain and Greece? Do they want foreigners to dance their politicians like strip dancers and mules on crack? Do they want foreigners ruling their country partially, and making decisions for their economic and political affairs in their stead, for them, without them?
I'm not claiming the EU did everything right within their ranks. A lot could probably have been done a lot better, especially with Greece. But Greece is where it's at, mostly because of it's own governments and their shortcomings.
Italy? Really? Italian government is the longest running joke in Europe, with bunga-bunga Berlusconi being the cream on top. Nobody, not even Merkel, want to touch it and they all hope that the Italians somehow make it through.

The irony here is, that you see the EU as foreigners who dance politicians like puppeteers and ruling their country partially, making decisions in their stead - without seeing what Mr. Putin tries to achieve in the Ukraine right now.

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KiNgBrAdLeY7: 5) What was the cause for people wanting THAT badly to join europe??
The same the other part of the Ukrainians wanting to join Russia? A way out of their economic crisis?
Posted March 02, 2014
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KiNgBrAdLeY7: 3) How on earth could some people, having been allied with Russians for decades, simply want to depart from them,
i follow this but know that i do not understand. And i know that what i am about to say may not relate, but i'm saying it anyhow.. Many of us here in the Pacific Northwest of the u.s. and Canada would like to form our own state - Cascadia. In order that we might take better care of our people. That our energies benefit our communities and not wallstreet, nor our nations war and industrial machine. That we are free to follow our majority will with no interference from monied interest. To realize an actual representative government which serves our people. To not participate in the crimes of our country. To just live and let live.

So i can understand a desire to leave a union. Though for me, my own Cascadian dream does not necessarily mean secession. But certainly involves the people having a say in our own governing. We wish to be citizens not subjects.
Posted March 02, 2014
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KiNgBrAdLeY7: 5) What was the cause for people wanting THAT badly to join europe??
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timppu: Probably the same as for many other eastern European countries wanting to join EU: to raise their own living standards (Ukraine has been doing quite poorly economically, even compared to other "poor" east European countries; I think this is the main motivator for the unrest in Ukraine, just like in many other countries).

Whether joining EU will automatically provide that is a different story, but at least it offers the young and educated people a chance to work abroad in other EU countries, and maybe they are hoping also for incoming investments.

Maybe e.g. the people of Estonia can tell whether EU has brought any benefits to their economy.
Ukraine also wants decrease it's economic reliense from Russia so Russia can't bully them into submission every few years by cutting the gas lines, increasing the cost of gas or demanding Ukraine to pay back it's loans. Russia has done so pretty much every time Ukraine has tried to improve ties with the West.
Posted March 02, 2014
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Matruchus: The reason why this happend is that Ukrainian rebells - now Ukrainian government - signed an international treaty with germany, poland and france and also the russian representative was there. After the foreign ministers from eu countries went home ukraine drove over the agreement.

The agreement was following - Yanukovich stays president till december 2014, elections in september 2014. What did the new government do - depose Yanukovich at once, make elections for may 2014.

That is why Ukraine wont get any help from EU or US they broke an international treaty so russia breaking another treaty with invasion is levelling the field really as long as it doesn tilt.
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AzureKite: I have a simple answer for that. A treaty you mention was made by foreign ministers, ex-president and opposition. People on Independence Square didn't delegate or give the right to opposition to make such agreements. Their demand was a resignation of a president. Opposition from the very beginning just tried to ride on the wave and didn't have much support even from the protesters. So clearly, when people die and some politicians make an agreement behind your back, you have the right to tell them to kiss your arse. And then the ex-president calls for Mourning day, which is the day the militia got fireweapons _officially_. Ain't that a sweetest thing?

Consider this. If _he_ considers himself a president, why did he run? From who? From people of his own country? He didn't even once come out to people and try to explain things. He just enjoyed his power, luxurious life and kept freaking smiling.
Yes I understand your reasoning but the polititians dont see it that way and that is the problem.
Posted March 02, 2014
Lots of weird discussion in here. Ukraine has a history all its own, it's time within the USSR doesn't change that. While there are historical ties to Russia they're not mandated to always be in Russia's camp.

As for America needing an enemy, I think that works as a motivator for every society to some extent. Russian leaders give their people an enemy too. I don't think the common American sees Russia that way especially right now however, we just tend to have this idea that we're the best country in the world (perpetuated by our media) and see everything through that lens. It is what it is.

Anyway hopefully Russia sticks to the Crimea peninsula and then I doubt this would escalate past some diplomatic posturing. If they invade Easter Ukraine though, the real shit hits the fan.
Posted March 02, 2014
Let's hope for this to be resolved as quickly and/or peaceful, as possible. War is a terrible thing; only weapon industries and strong nations bask in happiness among them, while the weak and the poor always suffer. I have some friends from Ukraine from social sites, and i had been wondering why they do not log in for quite some time now (even before civil crisis was announced in public)... Now i know. Best of wishes. Wish i could help.
Posted March 02, 2014
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Matruchus: Yes I understand your reasoning but the polititians dont see it that way and that is the problem.
The politician don't understand the problems of common people? Who'd have known?! ;-p
Posted March 02, 2014
All Ukrainian reservists called in to army now. By last count Ukraine has officialy one million reservists.
Ukrainian troops on Crimea supposedly went over to russian foces so it seems be going to be bad.

There are some Ukrainian clips on youtube showing Ukrainian artillery moving to south Ukraine.
Post edited March 02, 2014 by Matruchus
Posted March 02, 2014
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Matruchus: All Ukrainian reservists called in to army now. By last count Ukraine has officialy one million reservists.
Ukrainian troops on Crimea supposedly went over to russian foces so it seems be going to be bad.

There are some Ukrainian clips on youtube showing Ukrainian artillery moving to south Ukraine.
Was to be expected. Russia (Putin) playing with his muscle, the Ukraine does too. So far it's just that, muscle play. None would expect from the Ukraine to just hand over Crimea. Hopefully both sides are enough afraid to take the next step....
Posted March 02, 2014
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Matruchus: All Ukrainian reservists called in to army now. By last count Ukraine has officialy one million reservists.
Ukrainian troops on Crimea supposedly went over to russian foces so it seems be going to be bad.

There are some Ukrainian clips on youtube showing Ukrainian artillery moving to south Ukraine.
False info. All Ukrainian military on the Crimea peninsula is in their places. Not all reservists were called, only those who are needed depending on location and situation.
Posted March 02, 2014
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Matruchus: All Ukrainian reservists called in to army now. By last count Ukraine has officialy one million reservists.
Ukrainian troops on Crimea supposedly went over to russian foces so it seems be going to be bad.

There are some Ukrainian clips on youtube showing Ukrainian artillery moving to south Ukraine.
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AzureKite: False info. All Ukrainian military on the Crimea peninsula is in their places. Not all reservists were called, only those who are needed depending on location and situation.
Dont know but the official news from western media speaks about general mobilisation for Ukrainian reservists.

Temporary Ukrainian president said following: (quote) .

"This is a red alert. This is actually a declaration of war in our country," Yatsenyuk said.

German newspaper Handelsblatt reports following:

36. Ukrainian border troop brigade in Perewalsk besieged with aproximately 1000 troops.

Confrmed now that those are russian troops there. - seems russia is really doing a grab for eastern ukraine (Donetsk area for now).

Russian ambasador in Czech republic called in to explain russia intentions. Czech republic names the happening as military invasion and an attempt to install new puppet government.

In several western media Putin now compared to Hitler.
Post edited March 02, 2014 by Matruchus
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionUkrainian Civil War in progress?(1767 posts) (1767 posts) 
(1767 posts)