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StingingVelvet: post-Soviet countries' borders, which are 20-50 years old at most.
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The-Business: The Baltic countries had been independent between the wars, so nearly 100 years. (Belarus and Ukraine even had theirs own UN memberships.)
Well, the baltics had been invaded by the USSR in 1939 after a mere 20 years of independence, so at the fall of the USSR they reverted to their previous state. Russia and Ukraine were both states in the sense of the law ( and had in the UN, distinct seats from that of the USSR )

The case of Crimea is however different from that of Eastern Ukraine. Crimea was, after the fall of the Tzarist Empire, an independant republic, till 1921, then incoroporated to Soviet Russia as an autonomous republic, until 1954, given to Ukraine ( that's the Gordian knot ), where it had the statute of an oblast until 1992, when it regained a statute of autonomy. From an international law point of view, Crimea has had constant borders for long enough for them to be "recognized boundaries" and has internal institutions ( Head of state - the President of Ukraine , but that's very much of a dual hat , assembly, own administration ). In other words, if the Crimean want independence from Ukraine, there is very little obstacle to recognition.

Eastern Ukraine is potentially an uprising and a secession, with, as it seems, the support of a foreign power.... that's something else entirely. It usually means war.
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Phc7006: The case of Crimea is however different from that of Eastern Ukraine. Crimea was, after the fall of the Tzarist Empire, an independant republic, till 1921, then incoroporated to Soviet Russia as an autonomous republic, until 1954, given to Ukraine ( that's the Gordian knot ), where it had the statute of an oblast until 1992, when it regained a statute of autonomy. From an international law point of view, Crimea has had constant borders for long enough for them to be "recognized boundaries" and has internal institutions ( Head of state - the President of Ukraine , but that's very much of a dual hat , assembly, own administration ). In other words, if the Crimean want independence from Ukraine, there is very little obstacle to recognition.

Eastern Ukraine is potentially an uprising and a secession, with, as it seems, the support of a foreign power.... that's something else entirely. It usually means war.
As it stands right now, Crimean Parliament can vote for a wider autonomy. And I don't object. But if Russia plainly annexes Crimea that _will_ be against any international agreements being made in the past. And if it is allowed, all of international agreements and law system can go to hell.
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Phc7006: The case of Crimea is however different from that of Eastern Ukraine. Crimea was, after the fall of the Tzarist Empire, an independant republic, till 1921, then incoroporated to Soviet Russia as an autonomous republic, until 1954, given to Ukraine ( that's the Gordian knot ), where it had the statute of an oblast until 1992, when it regained a statute of autonomy. From an international law point of view, Crimea has had constant borders for long enough for them to be "recognized boundaries" and has internal institutions ( Head of state - the President of Ukraine , but that's very much of a dual hat , assembly, own administration ). In other words, if the Crimean want independence from Ukraine, there is very little obstacle to recognition.

Eastern Ukraine is potentially an uprising and a secession, with, as it seems, the support of a foreign power.... that's something else entirely. It usually means war.
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AzureKite: As it stands right now, Crimean Parliament can vote for a wider autonomy. And I don't object. But if Russia plainly annexes Crimea that _will_ be against any international agreements being made in the past. And if it is allowed, all of international agreements and law system can go to hell.
Russian federal council gave full power to Putin to secure peace and prosperity in Ukraine - text right of star wars 3 -> Full scele invasion now allowed. Eastern Ukraine protesters already calling for Russia to come there and trying to occupy government buildings in the east.

Germans newspaper Sueddeutsche allready signing Ukraine off to Russia.
Post edited March 01, 2014 by Matruchus
I hope Renny Harlin will make a movie out of this, eventually.
I must say this whole russian invasion is looking similar to happening in movie Iron Sky. Same subterfuge and then invasion.

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Phc7006: The case of Crimea is however different from that of Eastern Ukraine. Crimea was, after the fall of the Tzarist Empire, an independant republic, till 1921, then incoroporated to Soviet Russia as an autonomous republic, until 1954, given to Ukraine ( that's the Gordian knot ), where it had the statute of an oblast until 1992, when it regained a statute of autonomy. From an international law point of view, Crimea has had constant borders for long enough for them to be "recognized boundaries" and has internal institutions ( Head of state - the President of Ukraine , but that's very much of a dual hat , assembly, own administration ). In other words, if the Crimean want independence from Ukraine, there is very little obstacle to recognition.

Eastern Ukraine is potentially an uprising and a secession, with, as it seems, the support of a foreign power.... that's something else entirely. It usually means war.
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AzureKite: As it stands right now, Crimean Parliament can vote for a wider autonomy. And I don't object. But if Russia plainly annexes Crimea that _will_ be against any international agreements being made in the past. And if it is allowed, all of international agreements and law system can go to hell.
I think at this moment you can really only on yourselves. Military help from EU can't be expected and if you think that you should get it then you really dont know what EU is. EU will just whatch Russia and threaten with sanctions.
Post edited March 01, 2014 by Matruchus
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AzureKite: As it stands right now, Crimean Parliament can vote for a wider autonomy. And I don't object. But if Russia plainly annexes Crimea that _will_ be against any international agreements being made in the past. And if it is allowed, all of international agreements and law system can go to hell.
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Matruchus: Russian federal council gave full power to Putin to secure peace and prosperity in Ukraine - text right of star wars 3 -> Full scele invasion now allowed. Eastern Ukraine protesters already calling for Russia to come there and trying to occupy government buildings in the east.

Germans newspaper Sueddeutsche allready signing Ukraine off to Russia.
Overdramatized. At least for now. Too much false information and propaganda. Some people just have a limited view on things. These people watch only one TV channel, which falls into their comfort zone. I watch and read every one I see. Though some are a pain to watch.
If I'm perfectly honest, Crimea would probably be better off seceding from Ukraine and pursuing its own Russia-focused path. It is in many respects a different country to the rest of Ukraine - the vast majority of the population speak Russian, are more pro-Russian and culturally have more in common with Russia than they have with the North.

If the planned Russian military involvement genuinely is to keep the peace in Crimea, it's probably not a bad idea. Most Crimeans seem to trust the Russians more than they do their own government, and there's likely to be less of a flare up than if Ukrainian troops march in.

That being said, if Russian actions in Chechnya and Georgia are anything to go by, then we should genuinely be worried about the potential of Russian expansionism.

Putin and Medwedew are likely to be very pissed about Ukraine heading towards a more EU-based policy, and if their goal is to annex Ukraine, things will get very ugly indeed, especially as it is neighbouring three EU states (Poland, Slovakia and Hungary).
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AzureKite: Overdramatized. At least for now. Too much false information and propaganda. Some people just have a limited view on things. These people watch only one TV channel, which falls into their comfort zone. I watch and read every one I see. Though some are a pain to watch.
For example?
(Any additional info is always welcome and comparing various sources may give a more or less realistic picture of what's happening, and that's exactly what I'd like to have).
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Matruchus: Russian federal council gave full power to Putin to secure peace and prosperity in Ukraine - text right of star wars 3 -> Full scele invasion now allowed. Eastern Ukraine protesters already calling for Russia to come there and trying to occupy government buildings in the east.

Germans newspaper Sueddeutsche allready signing Ukraine off to Russia.
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AzureKite: Overdramatized. At least for now. Too much false information and propaganda. Some people just have a limited view on things. These people watch only one TV channel, which falls into their comfort zone. I watch and read every one I see. Though some are a pain to watch.
Look I go to these following news sources sueddeutsche, handlesblatt, cnn, bbc and russia today and that was what i was able to extrapolate. Unfornatenately I dont speak russian or read cylric.

What you can really extrapolate is that NATO is not ready for this and cant respond to this threat. And thats why I was saying that Ukraine can really only count on itself.
Post edited March 01, 2014 by Matruchus
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AzureKite: Overdramatized. At least for now. Too much false information and propaganda. Some people just have a limited view on things. These people watch only one TV channel, which falls into their comfort zone. I watch and read every one I see. Though some are a pain to watch.
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Sanjuro: For example?
(Any additional info is always welcome and comparing various sources may give a more or less realistic picture of what's happening, and that's exactly what I'd like to have).
Our cable TV channels:
Well, Russian ones you know (HTB, PTP, OPT etc.)
Ukraine - 1+1, ICTV, Inter (which was pro-gov), 5 channel (was always in opposition).
Some I think have online versions of their programs.
Internet media is just too wide, really. I just browse through a news portal to different sites (portals like i.ua, bigmir.net).
Post edited March 01, 2014 by AzureKite
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Sanjuro: For example?
(Any additional info is always welcome and comparing various sources may give a more or less realistic picture of what's happening, and that's exactly what I'd like to have).
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AzureKite: Our TV channels:
Well, Russian ones you know (HTB, PTP, OPT etc.)
Ukraine - 1+1, ICTV, Inter (which was pro-gov), 5 channel (was always in opposition).
Some I think have online versions of their programs.
Internet media is just too wide, really. I just browse through a news portal to different sites (portals like i.ua, bigmir.net).
You should look at EU media for you will find you answer there how EU can or will respond.
What does Ukraine export other than hot women? Hot women are not a good enough reason to start World War III.
Post edited March 01, 2014 by ktchong
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AzureKite: Our TV channels:
Well, Russian ones you know (HTB, PTP, OPT etc.)
Ukraine - 1+1, ICTV, Inter (which was pro-gov), 5 channel (was always in opposition).
Some I think have online versions of their programs.
Internet media is just too wide, really. I just browse through a news portal to different sites (portals like i.ua, bigmir.net).
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Matruchus: You should look at EU media for you will find you answer there how EU can or will respond.
I don't count on EU. Never counted and always thought "$uck 'em". This artificial choice of "West or East" is crap. This country is too big to be part of anything.
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Matruchus: You should look at EU media for you will find you answer there how EU can or will respond.
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AzureKite: I don't count on EU. Never counted and always thought "$uck 'em". This artificial choice of "West or East" is crap. This country is too big to be part of anything.
Good for you. Feel the same and live in EU.
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ktchong: Ahat does Ukraine export other than hot women? Hot women are not a good enough reason to start World War III.
Mostly heavy industry. Or what's left of it. Like steel. And agricultural products.
Just go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Ukraine
Not a source of a truthful info, but you can get the gist.

And we don't export women. Though they are indeed hot.