I don't think anyone can really claim European countries are "independent" while the EU is around, and while most of them share the same damn currency. If Europe respected sovereignty, they'd dissolve the EU this very second.

Just drop the whole self-righteousness and "principles" act and think in terms of raw power and interests, Ukraine is in the Russian sphere of influence, it has a large Russian minority in the East and it directly borders Russia. Russia is never going to allow them to join NATO or become a proxy state for US/Western interests.

Any time I hear anyone says "muh values", "humanitarianism", "democracy" I feel like being sick. It's such utter hypocrisy and anyone who says these things has an agenda and is only using them for their own interests.

Ah, Crosmando, Crosmando. You really don't know what EU is do you. Any country that want's to leave can do that if it want's to since the Treaty of Lisbon came in power in 2007. No country decided to do that since we live in a globalized world and it would have been an economical suicide. EU was created to stop wars between the European countries. Its easy to live in Australia were you have more or less one national identity - here you have as many identity's as there are country's and several minority identity's inside those countries. Whitout EU we would have war in Europe and that is a fact. Since I come from the so called Balkan Powderkeg area I know what im talking about.

Great, then you can apply the same thing to the people of Donetsk and Lugansk, they deserve to not be a part of Ukraine if they don't want to be. Russia, if it is indeed helping them, is just doing so so they can have their rightful self-determination and freedom from the US-puppet regime in Kiev.

Unfornatelly that thing is only legally valid for EU since all EU members agreed on that. What is happening in Ukraine is a russian invasion - first of Crimea and now of East Ukraine. I would have no problems with it if they made a peaceful referendum in Crimea and East Ukraine without the presence of russian occupation forces. Russia could have chosen to agree to a peaceful independence referendum like UK did for Scotland which will happen in 2015 and nobody would have a problem with that. The problem are those russian troops there.

Firstly, what makes you think Ukraine or indeed even the US or EU would support a referendum in Donetsk and Lugansk? The evidence is that they would not, the US/EU would never support such a referndum and Ukraine would send troops to violently repress any attempts at secession. So violently seceding from Ukraine was the only choice they had. As for Russian involvement, well Russian is just helping them gain their freedom by providing them with weapons and support, as it would be very hard for civilian freedom fighters to win against the professional Ukrainian Armed Forces with no foreign help.

Secondly, Ukraine had a legitimately elected government before the Maidan overthrew that legitimately elected President at the behest of US/EU agents, and put into power an aggressive anti-Russian regime. The entire current Ukrainian political system in Kiev is illegitimate and the fact that Russia is even talking to them would be thought of as a gift they don't deserve.

Thirdly, the US and EU are hypocrites because on one hand they support Ukrainian fascists against secessionists, but on the other hand they supported Kosovo's secession from Serbia. In addition they have armed violent jihadists in Syria. Why did the US loudly support the Arab Spring in Libya and Syria yet was silent on it in Bahrain, Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states?

The West cannot say anything because they are hypocrites and everything they say about "values", "democracy", "international community", "humanitarianism" is just words coldly calculated to gain them strategic advantage.

It's so sad seeing you European countries become pawns of the US.

Yeah by last count some thousand russian troops are helping them gain independence - don't be naive. Its an invasion by any possible standard on this planet. East European countries have lit enough under russian oppression for decades to join the russian hegemony again. I don't see parts of baltic countries that have russian minorities breaking off and declaring independence and fighting against their countries like its "supposedly" by your and only russian account happening in Ukraine. Yeah Ukraine had a democraticaly president in a way that Putin is democratically elected - aka by fraud. And seriously if your talking about Nazis then look at Russia you won't find any in Europe. And seriously the way you are thinking is how the nazis thought in Europe when they thought they could do what ever they wanted. On otherside its funny that you that are being protected by Nato/US and live in peace and are protecting Putin - I won't say Russia cause Putin is not Russia - he is just a warmongering maniac leading it at the moment. If you like so much what they are doing then go to Russia and apply for their army and fight for the freedom of only "supposedly" oppresed russian people in Ukraine.

Eitherway think what you wan't to think but take in to account that you live in one of those evil western countries as you call yourself.

No? Russia is just helping them defend themselves. The secessionists in the Ukraine are not trying to take over all of Ukraine, just Donetsk and Lugansk, they are defending themselves from aggression from the Ukrainian army. The Soviet Union is not the Russian Federation, you are living in some old propaganda world. How does that change anything? Their might be oppressed Russians in Baltic countries, you think they don't exist because they aren't up in arms? Perhaps they are treated better than Russians in Ukraine, or whatever reason. The crisis in Ukraine was started by the overthrow by Maidan gangs of the legitimately elected President/government, ie it was started by Ukraine. Prove it. Also prove that the current Ukrainian President wasn't elected fraudulently, and prove that he hasn't been receiving money from the US/EU. Don't joke around, the Russians sacrificed some millions of their people to defeat Nazi Germany and fascism. Without them the Nazis would have taken over most of the world. Meanwhile Western Europe did not fight Nazism, but instead let it take over all Europe with only token resistance, and then let all the resources of Europe be used to attack Soviet Russia and attempt genocide of Russian peoples. Australia isn't a NATO country.

You are hopeless.

Well come on then, answer it. If Europe was so ferociously anti-Nazi/fascist, why did the Germans fight to the last bullet until their entire country was wrecked, why didn't they rise up? Why did France not fight as hard as the Soviet Union against the Nazi's? Why did they surrender and collapse so easily and then why did a fascist puppet state get so quickly established in Vichy?

The only reason fascism and nazism doesn't exist as a force in the world anymore is because of Russia.

I was born in Ussr.
Never again!

So much bullshit.

Then why are you claiming that Russians are nazi/fascist when I just showed you that they are the most anti-fascist country in the world?

Look about the russian nazi pictures in this thread and my above explanation to klumpen and all shall be revealed to you. Otherweise im done with your ignorance.

The Russians/Soviets lost some 20 million citizens fighting to defend themselves and destroy Nazism, so I think saying that they are nazis/fascists is highly disrespectful and you should feel deeply ashamed.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Communism was hundred times worse then nazism and a lot more people died then in WW2 cause of it so don't speak about things you have no idea about. If you don't find historical correlation between what Putin is doing and what Hitler did in 1930s then you are lost to this planet.

And for the record International Court in Haage has judged that communism is the same as nazism and same as fascism with this im saying goodybe to you.