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General discussionUh, yeah, when PC-idiocy goes too far...(238 posts) (238 posts) 
(238 posts) 
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This is my favourite topic
Posted June 27, 2020
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rojimboo: So basically moving away from stereotypes and making each race more complex than the sum of its racial genes.

Sounds good to me.
Not really - it makes all the different races equally bland and faceless. It was the distinct racial features that made DnD unique and the alignment system too. If you remove that an Evil Orc Paladin will be just as bland as an True neutral Drow Paladin.
Posted June 27, 2020
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teceem: Do you consider "oversimplified or exaggerated"... correct? (why else are you quoting wikipedia as a reply to what I said)
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PetrusOctavianus: I could swear you asked "Where did you look it up?" So I quoted the place I looked up.
I could swear that that wasn't the only thing I asked.
Posted June 27, 2020
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Matewis: So no arguments there. Truthfully I was and am more concerned for the Tolkien and Warhammer universes, where the evil races are afaik(?) pretty irredeemably evil and/or monotone in other ways - like all-male astartes which bothers some people.
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andysheets1975: Tolkien himself seemingly never settled on what exactly the orcs were supposed to be. As a Catholic, the idea of anyone being irredeemable didn't fit with his beliefs and he seems to have been leaning more toward the idea of the orcs falling into a sort of intellectual laziness that made them easily manipulated by demagogues like Sauron and Saruman. Presumably most of the smarter, more level-headed orcs either got massacred, enslaved, or figured out how to be inconspicuous to not arouse suspicion.
Keep in mind that Orcs are corrupted, twisted elves, which is why there's always been racial hatred towards one another, in regards to Tolkien's universe. That doesn't necessarily make them irredeemably evil, per se, but one would assume that it would be something that would require generations of "freedom" from Sauron/Morgoth/Saruman's influences.
Posted June 27, 2020
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BigBobsBeepers: People could do that already by modifying the rules and the like of their own games.

And it is good in a few aspects.

The problem a portion of people have is more with why it is being done and less about what is being done.
Oh? So to me at least, it's clear *why* they are doing it. It was offensive to people, for little to no reason, and it reduced races to tropes, cliches and stereotypes. This was the easy way for storytelling and characterisation - it is quite lazy to portray orcs as the less intelligent musclemen brutes, that are by racial nature disadvantaged to become clever, wise and intelligent wizards, for example.

Furthermore, it emphasises nature over nurture - saying that your genes determine to larger extent your abilities in later life. I mean, some of the nurture aspect of is captured in the 'background' for the character in these games, that bestow greater skills in some areas. But it still doesn't allow for exceptions, like an extremely talented orc mage, or an honest Vistani, or Romani in the real world.

Why then do you believe it is done, and why is that a problem for you?

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jepsen1977: Not really - it makes all the different races equally bland and faceless. It was the distinct racial features that made DnD unique and the alignment system too. If you remove that an Evil Orc Paladin will be just as bland as an True neutral Drow Paladin.
Well the proposed changes include making characters more complex and individualistic, depending on custom skills and trait advantages.

I don't see how making all elves more dextreous and less mighty, pigeonholing them to certain classes and alignments to gain an edge, is making the characters more 'distinct'.

It might make generalising people (by race) in the story and gameplay easier, but not really more complex and diverse.
Post edited June 27, 2020 by rojimboo
Posted June 27, 2020
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BigBobsBeepers: You make a good point here, and one I also hold to a good degree.

Game and other media(fiction) is meant to often be an ESCAPE from reality and many use it as such. Injecting more aspects of real life and reality(even for *insert pc buzzword here*) only serves to turn a good number off of such the more this is done, even if they agree with the beliefs being inserted in some cases.
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dtgreene: And this is a good reason why one would not want racism and sexism in the rules of the game; they're some of the more unpleasant aspects of real life, so why put them in games as well?
Oh, I dunno, probably because those can potentially drive the plot by exposing your characters to those types of negative behaviors, thus allowing them to experience certain unpleasant realities outside of their particular bubbles. Racism exists in D&D. Classism exists. Sexism exists. How your characters deal with these things outside of combat can enrich the experience to make them more well rounded sessions.

Why would you want to remove tools from storytellers' arsenals when good can be done by exposing people to why those things are incorrect?
Posted June 27, 2020
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rojimboo: Oh? So to me at least, it's clear *why* they are doing it. It was offensive to people, for little to no reason, and it reduced races to tropes, cliches and stereotypes.
If you truly believe that then I have this bridge in that part of NYC called Brooklyn to sell you.

People who aren't trying to fool themselves or others know they likely did it because of this

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rojimboo: Why then do you believe it is done, and why is that a problem for you?
It is because it uses serious issues to make money which belittles us and those issues in the process.
Posted June 27, 2020
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teceem: You might want to look up what "stereotype" means.
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PetrusOctavianus: OK, fair enough. I thought a stereotype was somehow a misrepresentation, like vikings being portrayed with horned helmets.
But since it's not I don't see what the big problem with stereotypes are, at least when the stereotype is actually correct.

In the case of D&D it actually reduces diversity when the sexes have the same stats. Why would I as a male play a female if there is no difference?
Why would a male player play a female character if doing so is strictly a handicap and provides no benefit?
Posted June 27, 2020
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dtgreene: Why would a male player play a female character if doing so is strictly a handicap and provides no benefit?
Not them but I know one reason. Challenge.

It's the same reason challenges like nuzlocke sprang up.
Posted June 27, 2020
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dtgreene: Why would a male player play a female character if doing so is strictly a handicap and provides no benefit?
Is that a rhetorical question? Why do people play games on higher difficulty settings?
Posted June 27, 2020
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rojimboo: Oh? So to me at least, it's clear *why* they are doing it. It was offensive to people, for little to no reason, and it reduced races to tropes, cliches and stereotypes.
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BigBobsBeepers: If you truly believe that then I have this bridge in that part of NYC called Brooklyn to sell you.

People who aren't trying to fool themselves or others know they likely did it because of this

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rojimboo: Why then do you believe it is done, and why is that a problem for you?
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BigBobsBeepers: It is because it uses serious issues to make money which belittles us and those issues in the process.
I don't really understand what you are trying to say. Can you clarify how they are making more money by upsetting the established fanbase, and how they are belittling you (whoever you are) and these issues?

But it reminds me (a lot!) of a certain user that I used to see around here, down to the tone and writing style. It's almost uncanny.

Don't worry, I won't lump you two in together, based on pre-conceived traits given at birth. Unlike in DnD currently.
Posted June 27, 2020
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rojimboo: So basically moving away from stereotypes and making each race more complex than the sum of its racial genes.

Sounds good to me.
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jepsen1977: Not really - it makes all the different races equally bland and faceless. It was the distinct racial features that made DnD unique and the alignment system too. If you remove that an Evil Orc Paladin will be just as bland as an True neutral Drow Paladin.
Either one of them would be more interesting than a Lawful Good Human Paladin simply because LGHPs have been common throughout D&D history (in fact, in 2e and earlier they were the *only* Paladins).

Incidentally, 3e did away with rigid enforcement of stereotypes; in fact, Dwarvan Mages, which are forbidden in earlier editions, are actually a good choice in 3e. (+2 Constitution means more HP (remember that low HP hurts more than high HP helps, and mages have extremely low HP), and it also governs the Concentration skill, which helps when hit while casting a spell, and the penalty doesn't actually hurt their spellcasting (though it would for a Sorcerer).

Then again, 3e isn't perfect; I still have issues with some mechanics, like the fact that there are hard stat requirements for casting spells in the first place. On the other hand, it's at least better than what came before.

I haven't really looked at 5e, but I wouldn't be surprised if it improves even more on this issue. (4e doesn't count here as that edition is so different from other editions that it should have been called something else and treated as a separate product.)
Posted June 27, 2020
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PetrusOctavianus: I could swear you asked "Where did you look it up?" So I quoted the place I looked up.
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teceem: I could swear that that wasn't the only thing I asked.
You need to rephrase the question so that it's less ambigious.
Posted June 27, 2020
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dtgreene: And this is a good reason why one would not want racism and sexism in the rules of the game; they're some of the more unpleasant aspects of real life, so why put them in games as well?
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LiquidOxygen80: Oh, I dunno, probably because those can potentially drive the plot by exposing your characters to those types of negative behaviors, thus allowing them to experience certain unpleasant realities outside of their particular bubbles. Racism exists in D&D. Classism exists. Sexism exists. How your characters deal with these things outside of combat can enrich the experience to make them more well rounded sessions.

Why would you want to remove tools from storytellers' arsenals when good can be done by exposing people to why those things are incorrect?
Simply removing racism and sexism from the game mechanics does not take the tools from the storytellers' arsenals.

(Also, if races are going to be different, I would prefer them to be as mechanically different as SaGa Frontier's races rather than just "humans except x and y".)

Edit: Why the low rating?
Post edited June 28, 2020 by dtgreene
Posted June 27, 2020
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teceem: I could swear that that wasn't the only thing I asked.
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PetrusOctavianus: You need to rephrase the question so that it's less ambigious.
Ok, let me try that again:
Keeping the definition in mind, how can a stereotype be correct?
Posted June 27, 2020
low rated
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rojimboo: I don't really understand what you are trying to say. Can you clarify how they are making more money by upsetting the established fanbase, and how they are belittling you (whoever you are) and these issues?
Did you watch the link? It explains it rather well on it's own.

They are making money by 'waving a carrot on a stick' in front of some groups (the ones they are trying to pander to) and expecting them to dance towards it.

As to how it is belittling. Well this should be obvious. They are reducing those they pander to to essentially unthinking insects who will fly towards any shiny bug light they see if it seems appealing enough.

As if to say 'you'll buy anything we sell if we put x or y in it!'

If you don't see that as demeaning I don't know what else to tell you.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionUh, yeah, when PC-idiocy goes too far...(238 posts) (238 posts) 
(238 posts)