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General discussionTV broadcast audio question(27 posts)(27 posts)
(27 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted October 16, 2021
Not really a gaming related thread but I thought I would ask here anyway as I know there are some very knowledgeable folks active on these forums.

For a while now I have been noticing that TV broadcast audio seems to be getting markedly worse, this is UK specific for the sake of this thread, but who knows maybe it is more widespread?

I am using relatively high end hi-fi equipment to amplify a TV's signal and am still not convinced that what is being broadcast is of any decent quality.

For the majority of TV stations that I use, I see the sound is broadcast in HE-ACC.5.1, some are just standard stereo.

The issue that I am experiencing, with films in particular, is that the level of volume for voice acting is so low that the volume needs to be pushed up dramatically. As soon as there are any loud sound effects the sound level becomes deafening, resulting in a constant need adjust the volume throughout the film which is entirely off-putting.

Two other things that make me wonder about the quality of TV broadcast audio are firstly commercials. Once a commercial comes on the sound level is so high compared to the previous levels that the volume must go down again, then back up for the feature. Secondly, experiments with iplayer and netflix seem to have no problems with a stable volume for the whole feature. Netflix in particular seemed to have superior audio, in that I had to markedly turn the volume down, compared to constant tweaking on live broadcasts.

Anyone else experiencing this kind of issue? Is it just poor compression, crap codecs etc? I have not been to a cinema for some time but I seem to remember the same issue- voices were fine but then sound effects could be crushingly loud.

Channel 4HD seems to be one of the worst offenders (to my ears anyway!)

I would be glad to hear any thoughts on this.
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Posted October 16, 2021
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lazydog: The issue that I am experiencing, with films in particular, is that the level of volume for voice acting is so low that the volume needs to be pushed up dramatically. As soon as there are any loud sound effects the sound level becomes deafening, resulting in a constant need adjust the volume throughout the film which is entirely off-putting.
It's called dynamic range. It's not a bad thing per se... after all, shouldn't an explosion (for example) be a lot louder than somebody talking?
But indeed, sometimes too much ("realism") is too much. Especially when every sound seems to be louder than the voices. A high dynamic range should provide a lot of room for nuance, not exaggerate 2 extremes (quiet/loud).
Don't you have some compressor function (night mode?) on your amplifier? It attenuates volume peaks. (I sometimes use that function in Kodi)

I haven't watched broadcast TV for more than 20 years now. I heard that the (average) volume of commercials has gotten a lot louder.
Post edited October 16, 2021 by teceem
Posted October 16, 2021
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lazydog: I would be glad to hear any thoughts on this.
There is poor over-compression (bitrates), something that you've probably noticed happened to video bitrates as well. When DTT (Digital broadcasting) first started I think the BBC were using 7Mb/s bitrates for SDTV (720x576). These days, you'll often see 1080i broadcasts at much less than that. Same thing happened to audio including DAB (which originally used the MP2 codec yet was still squashed down to 128kb/s, or the equivalent to 96kb/s MP3)

However the big issue you're talking about is the other type of "compression" where Dynamic Range Compression / High Dynamic Range has the effect you mention. For home theatre enthusiasts who have it set up just right it may sound good. For the average person it just makes the loud sounds too loud at the same time as making the quiet sounds too quiet. Advertisers in particular are guilty of deliberately making their adverts sound louder than the movie / TV show you're watching, something that should have been banned for all channels years ago.

Edit: It may be worth checking your TV / equipment as "Dynamic Range Control" (for Dolby Digital codecs, etc), will reduce the above effect and give it a more stable volume.
Post edited October 16, 2021 by AB2012
Posted October 16, 2021
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AB2012: However the big issue you're talking about is the other type of "compression" where Dynamic Range Compression / High Dynamic Range has the effect you mention. For home theatre enthusiasts who have it set up just right it may sound good. For the average person it just makes the loud sounds too loud at the same time as making the quiet sounds too quiet. ....
Dynamic Range Compression is something you use because it's more practical (neighbours? children? environment noise) or pleasant (you don't always care for the high volume). But, IMO, it rarely improves the "sound quality". (e.g. it can create a "pumping sound" - something also intentionally used in the production of Dance Music/EDM)

Ideally, the extremes of the dynamic range should be used for well selected dramatic effects, not for prolonged periods of time.
Post edited October 16, 2021 by teceem
Posted October 16, 2021
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lazydog:
This is simply the broadcaster ensuring the adverts are louder. Been a common practice in the Uk for years but from what friends have told me it IS getting worse.

Interestingly this was used on the Prodigy album Music For The Jilted Generation - one track in particular keeps dropping its volume. This caused people at parties to crank it up. The 12" single never had this and to my knowledge is the only way to hear the track properly to this day.
Posted October 16, 2021
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teceem: Dynamic Range Compression is something you use because it's more practical (neighbours? children? environment noise) or pleasant (you don't always care for the high volume). But, IMO, it rarely improves the "sound quality". (e.g. it can create a "pumping sound" - something also intentionally used in the production of Dance Music/EDM)
Yes, turning it on won't make it sound better but it will stop / reduce the irritating 'constantly reaching for the remote to change the volume every time an advert comes on / action scenes vs quiet scenes' thing. Adverts in particular are annoying enough that what little TV we watch we just mute / skip the adverts when they come on. As for sequences in a movie, the biggest problem is that what's marketed as a "premium High Dynamic Range home cinema enthusiast experience" doesn't work that well in practise in a house with a higher noise floor, neighbours, not waking young kids late at night, etc. As for audio quality, to be honest modern over-compressed broadcast TV is not a great source in general if you want the best sound quality. DVD, Blu-Ray, even Netflix often has a better quality audio source. DTT really is "lowest common denominator" all aspects these days.
Post edited October 16, 2021 by AB2012
Posted October 16, 2021
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lazydog:
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Sachys: This is simply the broadcaster ensuring the adverts are louder. Been a common practice in the Uk for years but from what friends have told me it IS getting worse.

Interestingly this was used on the Prodigy album Music For The Jilted Generation - one track in particular keeps dropping its volume. This caused people at parties to crank it up. The 12" single never had this and to my knowledge is the only way to hear the track properly to this day.
I have many more questions to ask other posters about their feedback, interesting replies indeed.

I would be curious to know which track you refer to though.
Posted October 16, 2021
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Sachys: This is simply the broadcaster ensuring the adverts are louder. Been a common practice in the Uk for years but from what friends have told me it IS getting worse.

Interestingly this was used on the Prodigy album Music For The Jilted Generation - one track in particular keeps dropping its volume. This caused people at parties to crank it up. The 12" single never had this and to my knowledge is the only way to hear the track properly to this day.
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lazydog: I have many more questions to ask other posters about their feedback, interesting replies indeed.

I would be curious to know which track you refer to though.
im gonna get the external drive out later and see. been a while since i listened anyway
Posted October 16, 2021
avatar
lazydog: The issue that I am experiencing, with films in particular, is that the level of volume for voice acting is so low that the volume needs to be pushed up dramatically. As soon as there are any loud sound effects the sound level becomes deafening, resulting in a constant need adjust the volume throughout the film which is entirely off-putting.
avatar
teceem: It's called dynamic range. It's not a bad thing per se... after all, shouldn't an explosion (for example) be a lot louder than somebody talking?
But indeed, sometimes too much ("realism") is too much. Especially when every sound seems to be louder than the voices. A high dynamic range should provide a lot of room for nuance, not exaggerate 2 extremes (quiet/loud).
Don't you have some compressor function (night mode?) on your amplifier? It attenuates volume peaks. (I sometimes use that function in Kodi)

I haven't watched broadcast TV for more than 20 years now. I heard that the (average) volume of commercials has gotten a lot louder.
I agree an explosion should sound louder. But if dynamic range is the culprit here, the explosion should not be allowed to sound so loud that conversation sounds become effectively muted. The range must be wrong surely. One is always louder than the other, why compromise on dialogue for a "loud" explosion?

Too much emphasis on the loud side? Certainly none of my other audio source components exaggerate this range as much as TV.

I know radio broadcasts can flatten out the lows and highs and god knows I don't want that to happen to broadcast TV audio but I can't dispute what my ears are telling me.

My amp is straightforward no nonsense stereo output and that wont be changing. I also wonder if 5.1 broadcast is part of the problem.
Posted October 16, 2021
avatar
lazydog: I would be glad to hear any thoughts on this.
avatar
AB2012: There is poor over-compression (bitrates), something that you've probably noticed happened to video bitrates as well. When DTT (Digital broadcasting) first started I think the BBC were using 7Mb/s bitrates for SDTV (720x576). These days, you'll often see 1080i broadcasts at much less than that. Same thing happened to audio including DAB (which originally used the MP2 codec yet was still squashed down to 128kb/s, or the equivalent to 96kb/s MP3)

However the big issue you're talking about is the other type of "compression" where Dynamic Range Compression / High Dynamic Range has the effect you mention. For home theatre enthusiasts who have it set up just right it may sound good. For the average person it just makes the loud sounds too loud at the same time as making the quiet sounds too quiet. Advertisers in particular are guilty of deliberately making their adverts sound louder than the movie / TV show you're watching, something that should have been banned for all channels years ago.

Edit: It may be worth checking your TV / equipment as "Dynamic Range Control" (for Dolby Digital codecs, etc), will reduce the above effect and give it a more stable volume.
Yeah, I have actually complained to C4 in the past about 1080i and 1080p switching and was aware from the outset that DAB sacrificed much quality to allow for additional channels...

I am actually wondering if TV broadcast audio should just be classed as second rate compared to real source as you mentioned. Very bizarre situation if you ask me when so many people seem to be obsessed with picture quality, relegating sound quality.

For anyone reading this thread in real time and with time to check, C4 are showing Venom tonight 2100 time which is a network premier for them. I have not seen it myself but I can almost guarantee it will exhibit the same phenomena- barely audible dialogue and bone crushing sound effects. Try it for yourself if you can!
Post edited October 16, 2021 by lazydog
Posted October 16, 2021
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lazydog: I agree an explosion should sound louder. But if dynamic range is the culprit here, the explosion should not be allowed to sound so loud that conversation sounds become effectively muted. The range must be wrong surely. One is always louder than the other, why compromise on dialogue for a "loud" explosion?
Do you mean the volume of speech compared to the volume of the explosion, or both at the same time?
If the latter, and the volume difference is too big, the speech should be an environmental sound, not communicative. Well, that's how it SHOULD be.
I've noticed that modern spectacle movies contain extended periods of time wherein the sound is at its loudest (compared to the speech volume which is a lot quieter). It makes sense I guess, the lizard brain isn't impressed by nuance.
Posted October 16, 2021
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lazydog: C4 are showing Venom
ill ask my sister as shes planning to watch it
Posted October 16, 2021
avatar
lazydog: I agree an explosion should sound louder. But if dynamic range is the culprit here, the explosion should not be allowed to sound so loud that conversation sounds become effectively muted. The range must be wrong surely. One is always louder than the other, why compromise on dialogue for a "loud" explosion?
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teceem: Do you mean the volume of speech compared to the volume of the explosion, or both at the same time?
If the latter, and the volume difference is too big, the speech should be an environmental sound, not communicative. Well, that's how it SHOULD be.
I've noticed that modern spectacle movies contain extended periods of time wherein the sound is at its loudest (compared to the speech volume which is a lot quieter). It makes sense I guess, the lizard brain isn't impressed by nuance.
I mean one compared to the other, not at the same time if that makes sense.

If I adjust volume to comfortably and actually hear dialogue, later effects are too loud.

If I adjust volume to comfortably hear sound effects, dialogue can no longer be heard properly.

I have taken into account that I am no spring chicken and that my hearing will not be perfect. I have ruled this out, I have also ruled out my equipment- this due to the fact that commercials are at an even level- especially noticeable on higher end commercials for cars, phones etc i.e. those who know sound is important.
Posted October 16, 2021
avatar
lazydog: I mean one compared to the other, not at the same time if that makes sense. If I adjust volume to comfortably and actually hear dialogue, later effects are too loud. If I adjust volume to comfortably hear sound effects, dialogue can no longer be heard properly.

I have taken into account that I am no spring chicken and that my hearing will not be perfect. I have ruled this out, I have also ruled out my equipment- this due to the fact that commercials are at an even level- especially noticeable on higher end commercials for cars, phones etc i.e. those who know sound is important.
As mentioned earlier, see if your TV has a Dolby Digital Dynamic Range Control option. Example for Sony TV:-
https://www.sony.co.uk/electronics/support/articles/00203665
Posted October 16, 2021
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lazydog: I mean one compared to the other, not at the same time if that makes sense.

If I adjust volume to comfortably and actually hear dialogue, later effects are too loud.

If I adjust volume to comfortably hear sound effects, dialogue can no longer be heard properly.

I have taken into account that I am no spring chicken and that my hearing will not be perfect. I have ruled this out, I have also ruled out my equipment- this due to the fact that commercials are at an even level- especially noticeable on higher end commercials for cars, phones etc i.e. those who know sound is important.
Since you can't change the volume mixing in a movie - or only watch those that have implemented it well...
Your options:
- Get a new amplifier with a built-in compression function.
- Get something like this (just one example): https://www.thomann.de/gb/dbx_166_xs.htm (connect it between TV and amplifier)
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionTV broadcast audio question(27 posts)(27 posts)
(27 posts)