Of course such categories are always dangerous when applied to liberally as a labels on media. However, they have a whole lot of worth in the analysis of art.

"Being too critical" might also be something to be aware of. However, it should be stressed that a critique of a work of art is seldom a personal attack on the creator. And attacking personally "in return" points to a very clear misconception as to what a critique is and what it is supposed to achieve.


The Super Mario series are great games. Ask Anita Sarkeesian, she'd agree. I guess not many people would say they buy Super Mario games mainly because they'd like to rescue Peach again... and again... and again...

This thread is getting weird. It really does seem that people are arguing now simply for the sake of arguing. I mean, I'm seeing stuff like "Anita is evil and wrong because half of all domestic violence offenders are female" and "Women being intrinsically in need of rescuing is the reason Mario is such NIntendo's best-selling series".

I know I may be taking those statements out of context, but I'm doing that intentionally...I mean, what on earth is everyone talking about? Isn't it amazing how this discussion CONSTANTLY is getting morphed into one on the evils of feminism? It seems odd to have to say this, but pushing for the equality of the sexes is a GOOD thing.
Now sure, there may be people who call themselves feminists who want to crush the male gender and reproduce asexually through cloning and testtubes (or whatever the prevailing "Feminists are out to get us" conspiracy theory is), but they're such a ridiculous minority that claiming that they have any significant power is ridiculous. Anita isn't that. Zoe Quinn isn't that (is she even known for feminist views? It seems most discussions on feminism relating to her are born out of the harassment she was facing). The vast majority of feminists seek equality of the sexes- nobody wants to castrate and enslave man.

Now I'm a male living in part of the world where women objectively and undeniably have it worse than men, so feminism might mean something different to me, but even disregarding that, I really don't understand the vitriol against this push for a more balanced view of gender in games. If nothing else, it forces developers to THINK about the game and story they're making instead of just falling back on ridiculously over-used tropes.

I've watched Anita's videos, and again, what chincilla says at the beginning of this page seems to hold true. Anita is neither claiming the games are not good, or that gamers are bad, or that she wants to take away your games and freedom or whatever. What I've seen repeatedly is the claim that the games contain tropes that perpetuate a culture of sexism and objectification and general all-around degradation of women. And it really is impossible to disagree with that. There are obviously notable exceptions...and look! Isn't it interesting how all those exceptions are the results of WELL WRITTEN stories and narratives? Maybe if more devs stopped relying on boring and overused tropes (that yes, perpetuate a culture of sexism), we'd get even MORE great games.

You want great games, don't you? DON'T YOU?! Because obviously if you disagree with me, then you hate games and gamers and think we're all ignoramuses and someone needs to start an internet campaign against you. </sarcasm>

PS: Even this thread seems to show, there are a loads of male feminists.

Indeed. I would say that Anita's rhetoric is a great example of the ability to analyse something well beyond a point where reasonable conclusions can be drawn and into a realm where any message you want can instead be deduced. Except of course, that would credit her with the ability to analyse which given her videos is something I would contest.

Those who argue that her videos are acceptable because they constitute artistic criticism fail to understand that criticism should be balanced, measured and based on fact. In the academic world, you would also frame it against previous work and studies. We can assume Anita's first video to be an attempt at critical analysis because of the following description in her video:

The[Tropes vs Women in Video Games project aims to examine the plot devices and patterns most often associated with female characters in gaming from a systemic, big picture perspective. This series will include critical analysis of many beloved games and characters, but remember that it is both possible (and even necessary) to simultaneously enjoy media while also being critical of it's more problematic or pernicious aspects.

However, good critical analysis does not involve misrepresenting various scenes in many games. Nor does it involve making claims, assertions or conclusions without proper evidence to back up such things (indeed, Sommers later cited academic works that refuted Anite's claims regarding subjects such as unwitting influence). Frankly, Anita's videos are atrocious and can be only described as opinion pieces masquerading as analysis.

If you want an example of good critical analysis, Sommers presented a brilliant rebuttal that used actual studies to back up her findings. The odd cheap jab aside, it was an example of how a professional academic deals with the investigation of anything; look at the evidence without prejudice, how this may correlate with previous research (and how previous research may or may not explain the evidence), weigh up the various sides and then draw sensible conclusions based on the analysis of the evidence with help from previous studies. Given Anita's Masters qualification, it is astonishing that she can call her videos 'critical analysis'. But then, she has 150,000 reasons to tell her donors what they want to hear rather than conduct actual critical analysis.

The worst thing is that tactics like this are commonplace (not just Anita does it) with the supposed intent of social change regarding the treatment of various groups, and yet such tactics have may have actually had a negative effect on those groups. The next strong female character in a game could very well have been the pure creation of an artistic mind, but will people see that or just see her as tokenism at its finest? The next LGBT couple may have been integral to the next blockbuster's concept working, but will anyone notice this or will they simply see them as a sop to the SJWs? Even the many, many people in gaming who are open minded will struggle to get past the prevailing feeling of tokenism towards these groups, and as a consequence those groups now have an obstacle that wasn't there prior. So yeah, way to go Anita and co.

It's easy to disagree with that. Without taking the time to demonstrate games have plenty of admirable female leads, the notion that video games perpetuate anything is bunk. It's like D&D in the eighties perpetuating satanism, or playing a Zeppelin record backwards tells you to worship the devil. Unsubstantiated bullshit.

Unsubstantiated? So you're saying that there ISN'T an unduly large proportion of games that feature a "Save the helpless female!" plot? Or a "This female serves no purpose except to drive the heroic male hero to his adventure!" plot? Or a "These women serve no purpose other than window-dressing/display of brutality/grimy dark grimness for the game-world" aesthetic?

List your "admirable female leads" (I'm sure there are many, I absolutely don't deny it), and then I'll list what I mentioned. And then we can talk about unsubstantiated bullshit.

Susan and Mitzi (The Cat Lady), Jade (Between good and evil), April (Longest Journey), Zoe (Dreamfall), Annah (Planescape: Torment) just from the top of my head.

Of course there is, but that's just poor writing. I'm saying none of it is sexist. None of it compels gamers to be sexist. No science has ever proven violent games makes gamers more violent, so why would those tropes make them more sexist? Do we need better writing, more variety? Yes. It's up to developers to deliver this. Anita browbeating the industry should effect no change because she holds a disingenuous stance. She's been debunked numerous times as a liar and a fraud. Only thing she cares about is making money and getting attention. I'm not listing empowered female leads because it's easy to google and we'd be here all day.

Oh! I can help. 90% of the protagonists of the Atelier Series are female (And there are a fair amount of those). Etna, Flonne (Disgaea 1), Lara Croft, Samus Aran, Rozalin aka Overlord Zenon (Disgaea 2), Yuna, Tifa, Celeste (Final Fantasy).

I have not seen her work, though I plan on changing that. However, I am somewhat leery of the proposition that certain tropes in and of themselves perpetuate sexism in gaming. While it might be true as a general tendency, there are certain instances where an otherwise headdesky trope can be used to good effect; then again, you do bring up the exceptions, so hush my mouth I guess, and let's get on to one of those exceptions.

Take Silent Hill 2, for instance. The protagonist is a white male looking for his wife. Thus far, it's a textbook example of the "damsel in distress" trope, except for the little problem where the wife in question is stated to be dead at the beginning of the game. The main character is also tormented by watching a female character who is strongly reminiscent of his wife dying as he is unable to help her, over and over again. It could be argued that this is demeaning the female character in question, since she is defined by suffering to torment the male protagonist; however, the reason that this is the case isn't that the writers were lazy, but because the torture she represented was meant to play off of Mary's death. The tropes that are ordinarily irritating in their tendencies used to good effect by subverting the traditional trope (Mary doesn't actually need saving) and using it as a source of horror (Maria is in a position where the protagonist feels a need to help her, but that need isn't used in a traditional sense, but instead used to torment James and the player).

That's not even going into the reading of the game as a parallel to the Orpheus myth. It's not that far off, when you think about it; Orpheus/James goes into The Underworld/Silent Hill to look for a dead Eurydice/Mary, and along the way Orpheus/James is tormented ironically; Orpheus looks at Eurydice before traveling the distance that Hades has said he must travel without doing so for him to succeed in bringing her back to life, and James is tormented by the town poking and prodding at him with symbolic reminders of what actually happened to Mary before revealing it and leaving him, emotionally broken, to his ultimate fate. In paralleling that myth, the story uses the tropes at issue, but does so elegantly.
Just to be clear, this is Samus Aran sans all the Other M nonsense?
Much as I love PST, Annah and Grace get the short end of the stick in that game. Neither has much in the way of a subplot compared to the likes of Dak'kon or Morte, and their personalities, while distinct and well fleshed out, feel a little limited. Maybe it's something to do with how "Annah and Fall-From-Grace were inspired by Betty and Veronica from Archie comics, embarrassingly enough", to quote Chris Avellone.

True, people who had something to do with TNO's past incarnations had a lot more backstory than the newcomers, but still they have well developed personalities and agendas - and unique \ rare classes make them important part of the team.
And, when you look at it, they are the only ones following TNO at their own will (well, them and Nordom, if some kind of free will exists in his shell).

No one in their right mind would disagree with this, but that's not what feminism is about. Feminists purely focus on women's issues and in the early days they had a point. However, today in Europe and North America there just isn't anything left to do for them, they have achieved their goals. This is where the movement began degenerating, instead of getting equal rights they want more rights. I'm talking about things like female quotas for companies and institutions or being able to get herself pregnant and then milk the guy for for all of his money legally. This has nothing to do with equality anymore. I am sure there are still issues at hand, but solving actual issues is much harder than doing lobby work. Today's feminists are creating more problems than they are solving.

You cannot achieve equality by focusing only one one side, and that's why both feminism and MRA are concepts that are broken by design.

Weeeeeel, to the extent that any of them have a choice...

"Is it choice, gith? Is it? Or is it a matter of two skies?"
"What of the cog-box? What does IT know of choice? There is only obey and obey, hmnnn?"
"Skull, skull, skull... Your expression is difficult to read without the skin wrapping, but I feel your FEAR from here. Coming here was not your choice."
"The succubus... Did she have a choice? Mayhap in her smooth-skinned mind of soft silks and hard truths, MAYBE choice... tchhh. But no. A Sensate MUST experience all, and to refuse to come - NOT a Sensate would you be. Still no choice!"
"The tiefling. The FIERY one. No choice. At. All. When you feel instead of think, there is little room for choice."

Also, there's the whole Mark of Torment drawing everyone in the party to him like iron to a lodestone.

Eh, Fusion works for me, I think it's the canon farthest game so far.

Spoilers, I guess, for those who haven't played :)
Ravel likes half-thruths and deceptions, we can't take everything she says as proper description of reality :)
Dak'kon is a slave. He's the only one that knows it, but by following his values he gave himself no choice but to follow TNO.
Morte feels guilty. And has a debt with TNO. And maybe wants to keep an eye on him? Knowing that TNO can track him down as one who knows something... TNO can awake as a friend or an enemy, and in both cases it's better to know what's going on.
Ignus remains loyal to his master, maybe as some weird form of Stockholm syndrome and maybe because of indoctrination he suffered as a boy.
Vhalior is kept alive by the last task he failed to complete. And that task is related to TNO.
Nordom can't really be categorized by human set of values.

On the other hand:
Grace follows sensations. There are many places where she can find them, but she choses to follow TNO.
Annah's love is doomed from the beginning and I guess she knows it. There are many ways to deal with it, she doesn't have to help her loved one in his quest for oblivion. And yet, she choses to stand by him.