Yeah, I think Traitor Soul is supposed to be the most complete of the three, but similar to Final Cut not a lot of it is really new.

For what it's worth, I agree Path of Exile is worth trying, unless being always online is a dealbreaker. I didn't do any of the multi-player stuff, other than occasionally watching general chat scroll by.

Here are a couple whose RPG-ness is debated by far more people than just me (just search for "is Zelda an RPG"?):

The Legend of Zelda:
+ Open World
+ Some secondary weapons (like bow and boomerang)
+ There are two quests: After beating the game or naming your file "ZELDA", a second quest is unlocked
+ On game over, there's a "RETRY" option, which allows you to throw away everything since the last save; useful if, for example, you used a key in the wrong spot
+ Exploration is rewarded with things like money and heart containers (though you occasionally find a place that takes away money)
- Have to game over (or use Up+A on controller 2) to save
- When loading a save, always start in the same spot (after gameover, if you "CONTINUE" you at least start in the same dungeon you were in)
- Those Wizzrobes are quite dangerous
- No XP system or similar
- Can only carry 255 rupees

Zelda II: The Adventure of Link
+ Has an overworld map, complete with random encounters
+ Sidescrolling in action sequences
+ You get to use magic; some spells make platforming sections easier (they're not just for combat, and one spell actually makes combat impossible)
+ Downward and Up Stab abilities can be learned as well
+ There are actual towns
+ There is an XP system, where you can raise any of 3 levels
- Not as open as the first game; the dungeon item is typically required to reach the next dungeon
- No secondary weapons
- There are death pits, which will instantly kill you (but you get 3 lives before game over)
- Certain items, like P-bags (give extra XP) and extra lives do not respawn after game over, even though their benefits are lost on game over
- Saving is like Zelda 1, but no "RETRY" option
- After game over or Up+A, you lose all XP since the last level up (on FDS, you also lose levels higher than your lowest level)
- When loading a save, always start in the same spot, and unlike Zelda 1, there are no warps. Also, continuing after game over in a palace still takes you back to the start, unless you're in the Great Palace.
- In the FDS version, the game will occasionally ask you to wait (this happens when entering or leaving a town, for example); the NES version eliminated these waits (as well as the disk flips)
- In the NES version, some enemies can drain your XP
- No currency system

(Of note, Zelda 2 is my favorite Zelda game.)

Congrats. Now run along and play whilst the grown ups are talking.

Wasn't fate the spiritual predecessor of Torchlight?

It has the same designer, plus the pet companion and the fishing. Been a long time since I played the original TL, but I felt like the combat in FATE had a bit more liveliness to it.


Going on another tangent, but the early access demo for "Book of Demons" out now feels a bit like the spiritual successor to the original Diablo, if with a pretty significant design twist.

Well, I personally think Deus Ex is a great ARPG (though of course it is really FPS-RPG hybrid).

Pros - Story and setting (nanopunk) are wel developed and there are some interesting characters. There is also great variativity - you can achieve objectives in many different ways: hacking, persuasion, lockpicking or brute force.

Cons - if you start to dig you may find that levels are not well developed (narrationwise) as you think - there are some "dummy" NPC's without lines to say, AI for enemies is also not that great.

Note - also no random, so replayability is purely through different ways to beat the levels.

The Witcher is also great ARPG.

Pros - Non-linear story and very interesting characters, great atmosphere (through visual and audio), figuring out some bosses and riddles is fun. All those things are especially impress, since they were adapted from Witcher books.

Cons - There are lots of references to the books and if you haven't read them, you will be clueless when some NPC will ask you about something you supposedly should know. Also progression system towards the end of the game becomes less variative.

Note - the game itself is more story-based cRPG, just combat is action. So unlike Diablo-likes Witcher doens't have a lot of differnt loot and stats to pick.

Sacred 1: respawning monsters.
Toooooooo much. Bloody game breaking, as is booooring.

I'm currently playing Titan Quest on the side right now, and what I've noticed is that despite the repetetitveness and grinding that is kind of inherent in the Diablo-style ARPG genre, there's also quite a bit of variety in Titan Quest in how the (pre-designed) areas look, how big they are, how the individual quests play out, it's not totally predictable and following the same formula all the time. Sometimes the boss waits in the depths of a huge deep dungeon, sometimes just around the corner. In general, what I've realized is that I really like the predesigned, not (that) random nature of the areas, even though there are still too many trash mobs for my own taste (which is not that much in favor of ARPG gameplay like grinding and looting).

Another small but very nice feature in Titan Quest I noticed is that if you travel through the same area in different play sessions, it shows all the previously explored territory on the map in grey, and your current paths in color, clearly distinguishing between what you've explored today, what you've explored last time and what you haven't explored at all yet. Which reminds me that predesigned games like Titan Quest are probably a bit more about exploration than games with randomized areas like Diablo. And apparantly Titan Quest is well aware of that, judging by that map feature.


As for the others games, I do seem to remember that Nox made more use of the keyboard in addition to just mouseclicking (although I might be mistaken), and Victor Vran plays good with a controller and IIRC has things like jumping and dodge rolling which you won't find in classic DIablo-style games, so it feels a bit more action/arcade-like.

Con: Being in a world populated by other random players, taking down your first big monster and getting your best color item drop stolen and having a random stranger pick it up from walking in from off screen. Yeah, fantastic so much fun having your loot stolen. That was the end of my Path of Exile gaming.

a) It's hard to explain what I mean with "sweet perspective". I'd have to replay it and try to pinpoint it, but I always had the impression that the view angle was special, or that the ground had a slight "vanishing point" aspect, maybe due to the colours... I'm really not sure. There's a visual feel in Diablo 2 that makes the world feel less "flat earth"-y.

Some day I'll manage to put words on it. But I don't think I've seen this effect elsewhere, whatever it comes from.

b) The Soldak games pit you against other heroes, who try to perform the available quests and missions in parallel to you. They grow, they 'steal' your objectives, they have their own lives, and, as the enemy bosses and mobs also grow and evolve with time and deeds, it makes for a crazy dynamic world, where you can absolutely not slack for any second. It's a lot of fun, but damn it's taxing. Anyway, it's really like an AI-driven multiplayer game. A unique experience, which hooked me and drove me crazy at the same time. And eventually drove me crazy more than hooked me.

c) By "mechanical play", I meant that you end up playing mechanically, absent-mindedly going through the motions. A bit on automated mode. It's relaxing (it's casual), and sometimes it's what I'm after. And other times, I need to get more involved, more attentive of what's on the screen and how to deal with it.


And yeah, I would have started Grim Dawn if I wasn't bothered by my lack of expansions (and I don't feel like paying a game's worth of money for them - even during the sales, the DLC discounts are typically low). Because of this, I'm more likely to try out Helsing from the time being. But also trying to "gog connect" my steam Grim Dawn for the long term.

Couple of things I'd add, since I've been recently replaying Diablo II. There was some HEAVY padding in a lot of the boss dungeons, to the point where I was starting to get bored and more than a little irritated after clearing levels and not finding the boss. I think that this is one major area where Path of Exile improved on D2's level design, by making more frantic, but shorter levels in a lot of areas.

As for not taking the PoE plunge? If you're any kind of ARPG fan, it's well worth playing. There literally are no hidden costs, as all purchases are strictly cosmetic, and all top level gear for your builds can be acquired by farming in game currencies. The story is pretty decent, it captures a really dark and atmospheric feel to the game's aesthetics and designs, with inspirations from everything from Roman, Gothic, Pacific Islander and other mythologies, with their own spin on it. The biggest issue can be the curve, and the massive skills tree, which, really isn't that big of a deal as people make it out to be, as long as you have a roadmap of where you want your build to be, how viable that build will be, and by taking your time to look over the passives tree and figure out what each cluster is and how it benefits your character. Not to mention, once you go in with what you want your build to be, you can strike entire clusters and automatically shoot for passives that directly benefit your build. (Tanks +Life +Strength +Regen +Resistances, etc.) That's without even touching on the fact that its quasi-MMO nature in hubs means it's always being actively developed in both single player campaigns, as well as new seasons that bring new content which gives you ways of acquiring new gems, gear, currencies and other loot. I truly believe that between it and Grim Dawn, they really have made worthy successors to Diablo 2, far more than 3 is, even after the DLC.

I would also recommend Grim Dawn, as it has an extremely unique world and feel, with everything from different magic types, ranged types, both firearms and bows, melee types, etc. I have yet to finish it, but it stays installed for when the mood strikes me.

I'd also add Warhammer 40k: Inquisitor to this list, it's still in EA, but it's looking pretty good. If you're into Warhammer 40k, and ARPGs, I'd at least say it's worth keeping an eye on.

Wolcen is also still in very early EA and as such, definitely feels very beta. I got it on discount, but the mechanics thus far are decent. There's a LOT of placeholder content, as well as some of the leveling passives not actually being usable yet, so I would NOT recommend jumping aboard right now, if you're looking for something deep. It's not that, at least not yet. It IS pretty for an isometric game and they're getting good use out of UE.

My biggest problem with Hellgate London was how empty a lot of the hubs seemed, and how each hub felt more like an MMORPG town. You could kinda tell that that's where they wanted to ultimately go, considering how inherent it is in its design structures. That said, I enjoyed it and wish there was a way of legitimately still acquiring it, aside from attempting to buy physical copies.
Honestly, there's never been a point where I've engaged in multiplayer instances. If I can't solo it, I grind until I can. There is no penalties for doing so, and you really don't have to play with other people to progress, although it might make the Atlas of Worlds portion a bit easier on you.

Btw, what do you think of MMOs? Specifically Secret World Legends. This game design is as close to single ARPG as it possibly could be. Essentially it is single action-adventure RPG that has some quests require Internet (for different reasons).

I actually REALLY enjoyed Secret World. It was trying something different and for the most part, it worked. Obviously, it had its flaws and really didn't get fully away from the biggest issue with most MMOs, IE: the insane grind that it inevitably devolves into. That said, though, the puzzle/mystery/investigation aspects really broke that tedium up for me, and I feel like modern MMOs should take a few notes from that game. It also struck a chord with me on the aspect that I'm not typically into your stereotypical swords and sorcery fantasy games, and I enjoy post-apoc/sci-fi a lot more than D&D, unless it's REALLY well done and immersive. I feel like a horror/supernaturally themed MMO was something that hasn't been done and they did a good job with it.

I still actually have the Legends version installed and I really need to get back into playing it one of these weekends.

I wasn't playing with other players. The game is an online world that is free to play and so you have other players in the world with you at all times. I wasn't even fighting a boss it was just a special powerful character in which I was finally getting my first piece of good gear and I as clicked on it to pick it up another player picked it up right before me.

I knew other players would be in the world, but I thought it had a D3 setup where every player saw their own loot so you could look over it and pick up what you wanted and needed. I was wrong and that was the end of PoE for me.

Huh. That doesn't match my single player experience at all.




I'm hitting this now - I think what makes it frustrating is the combo of respawns + enemy scaling. Plus the combat doesn't seem to be designed for 1-2 shotting monsters a la Diablo or TL, even just on silver difficulty, so it really can be a grind.

If those mobs were still lvl 7 when I was coming back through as lvl 11, NBD, but carefully grinding my way through the same trash areas over and over is definitely a bit underwhelming.

And unfortunate, because it discourages exploration a bit, because I'm spending my game time just trying to get down the ****ing main road without my escort dying, not actually getting anywhere most of the time.