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General discussionThe Greek referendum(750 posts)(750 posts)
(750 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted July 15, 2015
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KiNgBrAdLeY7: I have hope.
Yeah cool. For xrisi avgi or kke ? Tell us all.
Posted July 15, 2015
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KiNgBrAdLeY7: I have hope.
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Telika: Yeah cool. For xrisi avgi or kke ? Tell us all.
You can divine that out easily, holmes... You know me all too well by now, to have a more than educated guess...
Post edited July 15, 2015 by KiNgBrAdLeY7
Posted July 15, 2015
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Telika: Yeah cool. For xrisi avgi or kke ? Tell us all.
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KiNgBrAdLeY7: You can divine that out easily, holmes... You know me all too well by now, to have a more than educated guess...
Apparently there's a special party for supporters who wave a tiny flag, yelp, and run back to hide under little rocks whenever anyone turns their attention to them. Greece is saved.
Posted July 15, 2015
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eRe4s3r: the problem is that in the past 5 years, Greece has successfully... delayed all agreed reforms. And not actually done a single one of em
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Telika: Sorry but do you even REALISE the magnitude and the dangerosity of that lie ?

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2813%2960102-6/abstract

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis_countermeasures#Austerity_packages_and_reforms

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/02/26/the-reason-austerity-in-greece-didnt-work/

http://41.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3ptidKCwV1qm81zso1_1280.jpg

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/feb598a8-f8e8-11e0-a5f7-00144feab49a.html

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/rbi-blogs/wp-content/uploads/mt/icisweb/blogs/chemicals-and-the-economy/2011/10/18/EU%20austerity%20Oct11.png

How long will we have to hear that bullshit ?

_____

Also, keeping a decent, responsible, level of austerity in Greece would not be destroying the rest of Europe, neither politically nor economically. It wouldn't be inflicting to Europe wht is being inflicted in Greece. But of course, a risk of discomfort "at home" is always more feaky than utter devastation abroad. So yeah, end of the world averted yay.
I didn't say they did nothing, I say they did zero reforms. Tax increases, pension cuts, firing people, cuts, more cuts, VAT changes, that is not reform, only the cut deficit part of Austerity. To reform something you have to do more than change expenses and income, reduce costs or fire a ton of people, you have to fundamentally change the underlaying systems and Greece did not do that. Worse, it did not negotiate to make this the best possible outcome for itself. Reforms of the social security and medical insurance systems for example, Greece never brought them up or made them a mandatory part of any agreement. Why not? Now millions of Greek have no medical insurance and thus are quite literally left to die. But that is not because of Austerity, but because the Greek gov did not ever reform these systems to make them stable and fair for the weak and poor. (And to be fair, this is not against Syriza, they are not in power long enough, yet) I mean the other gov's before Syriza.

And what reforms you ask?

Land register (completely obscure and a total mess, nobody invests in Greece because you can literally not know who owns what land, if you buy a parcel, you can end up with payment obligations to the church and other 3rd parties, some land is entirely unbuyable because the records are faulty),

business registration law/regulations (one of the worst and corruption prone in the entire EU, it takes 40+ bureaucratic actions before you can even *start* a business),

taxation office structure (completely under-staffed, with no legal power, but also heavily corruption prone on a local region level, generally considered entirely "broken")

legal situation of unions (way too much power, certain unions deadlock entire industry branches and block ANY advancements to open up the market, this especially involves lorry drivers, taxi drivers and some other export/import related branches of the economy),

gifts to the rich made law by previous govs (need to be revoked)

selection process of public employees and state employees both national and regional (nearly all of the latter got their position through party corruption, and not by ability, these are the ones blocking the majority of said reforms)... etc.

Absurd situation of power the church has in Greece. There are areas in Greece where you can't take a step anywhere without stepping on church owned land. A church that is heavily in bed and subsidized by the local regional governments.

A debt cut or allowing any leniency that was not granted to the other 5 problem candidates WOULD shatter the Eurozone. How would you as government that just applied harsh Austerity and is now mildly growing again defend against public rage if suddenly Greece got a debt cut just because it pissed Eurozone off long enough? This would mean every country with a debt problem just has to be as annoying as Greece to get a debt cut. And who pays for that in the end? You? No... everyone that lives in the EU. And I refuse to be part of a EU that is a transfer union.

You forget that these Austerity packages were 50% deficit cuts and 50% reform of actual systems. And just because a Austerity package was agreed on, doesn't mean Greece actually implemented it 100%... that was the problem with the negotiations for the 2nd bailout. Greece had failed to do most of the required reforms. And this Austerity only works when you actually reform your country, not just cut spending.

Are you saying Greece applied all reforms you linked to in your reply? ;) Because that would be in stark contrast to the paper released before the 30th June claiming that Greece essentially ignored a large part of the things it signed to do as part of Austerity....

###

I will grant you one point however. That with the current debt situation, Greek government and population has no actual self-driven will to reform it's own country on a fundamental level. Not to mention this would take years and tons of expertise. As long as these absurd Austerity/Reform bailout packages are given, nothing will change in Greece. I have the feeling the majority of Eurozone is seeing this debt as a tool, and not actually wants to reduce it at all.

Oh well ;)
Post edited July 15, 2015 by eRe4s3r
Posted July 15, 2015
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Gremlion: snip
Resources will come from wherever they are coming today... are you imagining some kind of US embargo? :) That's way far out.

As to united Eurasia, rather than united Europe - yes, that would be a larger geopolitical threat than just the EU. But it's nowhere near realistic. Russia would have to reverse direction, and that's as far out as a US embargo of the EU.

It's very simple, suspicion of Germany is still echoing today, and WW2 ended over 60 years ago. When do you think suspicion of Russia will dissipate in Eastern Europe when 89 / 91 was basically 25 years ago? So Europe and Russia might hookup from time to time, but a marriage even of convenience is not in the cards for another 100 years or so. And that's a best case scenario...

Anyway, kindly PM me if you'd like to continue this conversation. I don't want to derail more.
Posted July 16, 2015
Some Twitter message summarizes the absurdity of todays voting in the parliament in Athens quite nicely:

"So let me get this straight: we will have the OPPOSITION defending the proposal brought by the GOVERNMENT, which will be ATTACKING it. Cool."
Posted July 16, 2015
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Trilarion: Some Twitter message summarizes the absurdity of todays voting in the parliament in Athens quite nicely:

"So let me get this straight: we will have the OPPOSITION defending the proposal brought by the GOVERNMENT, which will be ATTACKING it. Cool."
You can check the debates live, with english translation voiceovers, as thepressproject.gr, if you wish. The interpreters take a break when the neonazis speak, but all the rest is translated.
Posted July 16, 2015
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Telika: You can check the debates live, with english translation voiceovers, as thepressproject.gr, if you wish. The interpreters take a break when the neonazis speak, but all the rest is translated.
The neonazis are those who enforce censorship, apparently... In democracy, everyone's opinion should be heard, or translated. THIS is *real* fascism. Clad and served as democracy, of course; at its finest, i might add.
Post edited July 16, 2015 by KiNgBrAdLeY7
Posted July 16, 2015
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Telika: You can check the debates live, with english translation voiceovers, as thepressproject.gr, if you wish. The interpreters take a break when the neonazis speak, but all the rest is translated.
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KiNgBrAdLeY7: The neonazis are those who enforce censorship, apparently... In democracy, everyone's opinion should be heard, or translated. THIS is *real* fascism. Clad and served as democracy, of course; at its finest, i might add.
Shut up, coward.

At least the nazis in the parliament have the nuts to publicly carry their flag. Unlike the goons amongst them who'd only be transparent about it within the comfort of the boots noises around them.
Post edited July 16, 2015 by Telika
Posted July 16, 2015
229 voted yes (of 300) ;) So Greece accepted the 3rd bailout negotiation basis including all included "prior to any negotiation" reforms.

on Phoenix HD you could also see the debate live with German translation voice over btw. Was Interesting to say the least.

And with that, we can mark this as another historic event... let's hope that in 3 years Greece will not be a failed state
Posted July 16, 2015
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eRe4s3r: I didn't say they did nothing, I say they did zero reforms. Tax increases, pension cuts, firing people, cuts, more cuts, VAT changes, that is not reform, only the cut deficit part of Austerity.
That's reform. There may be a different term for it in German, but in English those things all count as reforms, eg tax increases, changes to brackets and VAT count as reforming the tax system.
And with that, we can mark this as another historic event... let's hope that in 3 years Greece will not be a failed state
If the IMF won't back the bailout- and it seems they won't without significant tinkering with it to reduce debt burden- then the Greek vote is historically irrelevant unless the two remaining bits of the troika (biska?) can find 16 odd billion extra Euro to buy out their contribution. A contribution they knew prior to the agreement wouldn't be forthcoming, yet pretended it would be; so much for 'good faith'.

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Atlantico: People seem to like to think they can affect the economy, but they can't.

Not in small groups or large. They simply don't have the capacity to take money out of an economy, through debts or contracts, which is what you need to break an economy.
It can happen, for example in a bank run where everyone demands their deposits and the bank cannot cover them, that will bring the bank down unless someone else steps up to save them. If you bring the bank down it may bring other banks down along with them due to contagion and any bad debts the original bank has. That has happened multiple times throughout history, usually along with a speculative bubble.

It certainly doesn't happen very often now though, and is usually one of the cases where you get overt governmental or central bank intervention. A bank run is a manifestation of loss of big C Confidence, which is one of the most dangerous things you can have economically, precisely because much of modern economics is by fiat- it is only backed by Confidence in central institutions and currency, else money is just paper and 0s and 1s on a disk somewhere; worth nothing.
Posted July 16, 2015
I like political and economic debates and all, but I don't think I'm literate enough, or anyone else here for that matter, for the size of this discussion. Everyone brings just one viewpoint of many and holds it close like a religion. Many are not willing to see the viewpoints of others or even bother to understand them. Some people even come up with frankly preposterous conspiracy theories and spout the most audacious of things. I'm going to be blunt here. I've heard some bullshit here that just breaks the norms even for internet.

Where is this discussion actually going? All I see is a bunch of people arguing over the same points over and over with the occasional argument about semantics. Or maybe I'm just blind, in which case apologies and carry on.

But is there really no consensus in which all parties end up with something?
Posted July 16, 2015
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eRe4s3r: I didn't say they did nothing, I say they did zero reforms. Tax increases, pension cuts, firing people, cuts, more cuts, VAT changes, that is not reform, only the cut deficit part of Austerity.
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Phasmid: That's reform. There may be a different term for it in German, but in English those things all count as reforms, eg tax increases, changes to brackets and VAT count as reforming the tax system.

And with that, we can mark this as another historic event... let's hope that in 3 years Greece will not be a failed state
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Phasmid: If the IMF won't back the bailout- and it seems they won't without significant tinkering with it to reduce debt burden- then the Greek vote is historically irrelevant unless the two remaining bits of the troika (biska?) can find 16 odd billion extra Euro to buy out their contribution. A contribution they knew prior to the agreement wouldn't be forthcoming, yet pretended it would be; so much for 'good faith'.
I am trying to grasp what went wrong with the reforms and would apologize for my limited knowledge of the Greece financial crisis.

The following is what I glean from a limited number of post and I may very well be wrong.

Greece top people choose not to upgrade its fishing pole into a fishing net, but instead choose to make bottom people skip dinner to have a few more spare fish to sell. Because while the fishing net is more effective, the top people have investment / interest / benefits in the fishing pole production industry.

Also the bailout money from Europe did not went into the production of fishing nets, but into the top people of Greece fishing pole industry.

Reforms that hurt the top people of Greece is largely ignored and shift the burden on the bottom people of Greece.

Top people of Europe care less about Greece crisis as long as Greece is a fishing pond that they can fish, up until the pond dried up. The bottom people of Europe pay so the top people of Europe can continue fishing in the pond.
Post edited July 16, 2015 by Gnostic
Posted July 16, 2015
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Brasas: You're not even trying now...
There's nothing to "try" for, if you don't want to engage the question that's on you.

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Brasas: here's the original 4 points summarised again:

Stimulus is dependent on nonexistent savings. Greek leadership is incompetent and cowardly. The power is in EU and Germany side. I see this as bad and beginning increased global problems.

Count them. Hidden in plain sight...
And none of this is relevant to what I was calling into question from your statement i.e. neoliberalism is on the rise everywhere, therefore safety nets will be gone everywhere. In your words:

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Brasas: What is happenign [sic] with Greece is a prelude to what is due to happen to all of us eventually, as the financial systems are identical and the debt economies are global. There is no safety net, and if you're my age and believe you will receive any retirement pensions... I got some land to sell you.
So your statement is not simply about Greece now or in the future - it is larger than that. Greece is the context from which you are making a larger point about safety nets inevitably being eroded everywhere by neoliberal ideals.

My question with regard to that "eventual" erosion (again):

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xSinghx: So what is this, your call to apathy and individualism? An appeal to the status quo.
In other words since you see this outcome (no safety nets) as an eventuality i.e. inevitability, you are resigned (at least from what is written) to an apathetic or fatalist stance i.e. whatever we do or don't do will have no effect on the outcomes. This is not an interpretation it is what is required of your statement, "due to happen to all of us eventually," which is again why I gave you an out when offering the possibility that you misspoke.

The neoliberal, no safety net, inevitable outcome you proposed is what I was questioning. Was it something you really wanted to commit yourself to? Was there some positive alternative you failed to include that could reroute this "eventuality"? Notice the past tense I'm using "was," at this point you've made such a sideshow of insults and posturing in your posts I really couldn't care about your answer. In fact the mere sideshow itself is answer enough. The lack of sincere engagement is entirely fitting for the terms of individualism and apathy I initially questioned you with - insults and posturing require them. They are the only answer you are able and willing to give e.g.:

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Brasas: I'm smugly glad and twisting my villainous moustache while cackling gleefully.
Post edited July 16, 2015 by xSinghx
Posted July 16, 2015
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xSinghx: snip
Dude, stop putting words in my mouth. I am not resigned to anything (warning: rhetorical hyperbole), and the whole problem is you're not listening to me.

You say neoliberalism is on the rise, when what is on the rise is fascism. I am ok with neoliberalism, I am not ok with fascism, and you just seem to consider that distinction is invalid (warning: rhetorical strawman).

You are constantly trying to insist I admit to something not true: that I am resigned, that I am advocating apathy, and other such bullshit. (warning: rhetorical swearing)

Make up your mind: either my intent matters, but then kindly listen to what I have expressed about it, with factual proof in text no less; or my intent does not matter, but then give up on trying to get me to admit you're right. (warning: rhetorical catch 22)

Bottom line: You are more than entitled to say that my opinions might cause apathy, or that they cause you apathy. You are even entitled to say that is my intent. But I know you're wrong about my intent and you're not entitled to get me to admit differently. (warning: rhetorical ethical gift)

Do you even see what you're doing? I have alluded frequently to how "thoughtcrime" vigilante you seem and that's no joke. (warning: rhetorical appeal to Orwellian authority)

At least I have a few sentences with which to discuss what I meant. This disagreement does not hinge on the meaning of the word inevitability. We all know what the word means. I already admitted to hyperbole... you are taking me literally and out of context: Showing pure bad faith. Let's remind ouselves again that you posted one sentence only: So what is this, your call to apathy and individualism? An appeal to the status quo.

You don't have so much room to spin, but you're sure putting in some effort...

Edit: Fuck it, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and spell it out for you. I admit I have not made it 100% explicit before.
-The status quo is not the rise of neoliberalism, it is the rise of fascism.
-Ergo, the fact I see "neoliberalism" (your terminology btw) as the solution is not a logical contradiction.
-Liberal policies are the antidote to the rise of fascism as individual responsibity is the best medicine to the abdication of responsibility that causes and reinforces our absortion in the totalitarian whole that is forming. With personal responsibility we can build social and community safety nets independently of Big Brother.
-I know this is hard for you to grok. You might be a typical left wing good intentions guy. I have no problem with those intentions, but I think the socialist road to fight fascism is worse than the liberal "individualist" (your word again) road.
-Our disagreement on how to fight the common enemy (fascism) does not mean I am a resigned fatalist. If you care for philosophy (you used the word earlier) I can say it like this: Stoicism is not nihilism.
-I do suspect you yourself of being totalitarian as well. This is how I interpret your clear personal animosity: you have been reading between the lines perfectly well and consider true liberalism almost as bad as fascism.
-Hence I expect you will ignore all of this somehow. Will be glad to be proven wrong though. And since this is enough of a manifesto, now I'm really going to stop replying to you in public, regardless of how much you misrepresent me.
Post edited July 16, 2015 by Brasas
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionThe Greek referendum(750 posts)(750 posts)
(750 posts)