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gamesfreak64: Every member of europe had to cut down on things , so its logical Greece has to do the same.
(...) Most European countries have gotten their fair part of cutdowns in social security , incomes and the likes ,so Greece should also participate on that
Implication : "They don't, and they don't".

Pointing out the austerity measures that have been implemented these last years (not to mention their devastating effects on greek society) will be completely useless. At best a "oh right" which will last four minutes before next "AND THE GREEK THEY REFUSE AUSTERITY WHILE WE ALL DO IT".

It's as pointless as mentioning the unsustainability of the debt that "THE GREEKS THEY MUST PAY AND THEY DO NOT WANT TO PAY BECAUSE THEY LIKE DEBTS".

Because easy chewable propaganda narrative > facts. Always. Forever.
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pigdog: Your analogy of putting band aids on bullet holes made me pause and consider for a while. Isn't putting a band aid on a bullet hole better than taking a knife and twisting it in the wound?
Of course. Of course it is. But I never accept - even in casual discussion (and you can see why this sometimes makes me less than popular with some people) - the argument that you have just formulated, which is "But if it's better than the worst thing possible, it's good enough, right?"

Better than the worst thing is just not the worst thing. Even if all you want is to appeal to a general public's humanitarian nature, you better have a backup plan for when someone asks, "OK, say I'm interested. How do we make this better?" Because otherwise you're at best presenting a plea with no real value; and realistically you're trying to address a problem with nothing more coherent than emotional response. And that's historically always gone so well.

Good intent without understanding of the problem and planned solution is no more valuable than just sitting down and praying that all the poor people will be rich tomorrow. Less, in fact, because if you truly believe that your prayer can work, you'll benefit from placebo effect and confirmation bias, and seeing what you want to see might even give you hope, which would help you keep at whatever you're doing.

I'd seldom suggest that someone not try to help others who want and need help; but it's not OK to encourage blind action. And it's not helpful to deal in abstractions. So don't, as you wrote previously, disregard the details and ask if poverty is OK. Understand the details, chew them thoroughly, and instead of appealing to a nebulous feeling that you hope people to have, talk about a solution or at the very least define the problem clearly. Even if you're never going to do anything about it, someone else might; and as small a contribution as merely pointing someone else in the right direction may be, it's still worth doing. Sure, we're just two idiots typing at each other on a gaming forum, but if we're typing about something that actually matters to others, I'd say we ought to treat the matter at least as seriously as a coffee table discussion. Wouldn't you?
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pigdog: Your analogy of putting band aids on bullet holes made me pause and consider for a while. Isn't putting a band aid on a bullet hole better than taking a knife and twisting it in the wound?
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OneFiercePuppy: Of course. Of course it is. But I never accept - even in casual discussion (and you can see why this sometimes makes me less than popular with some people) - the argument that you have just formulated, which is "But if it's better than the worst thing possible, it's good enough, right?"

Better than the worst thing is just not the worst thing. Even if all you want is to appeal to a general public's humanitarian nature, you better have a backup plan for when someone asks, "OK, say I'm interested. How do we make this better?" Because otherwise you're at best presenting a plea with no real value; and realistically you're trying to address a problem with nothing more coherent than emotional response. And that's historically always gone so well.

Good intent without understanding of the problem and planned solution is no more valuable than just sitting down and praying that all the poor people will be rich tomorrow. Less, in fact, because if you truly believe that your prayer can work, you'll benefit from placebo effect and confirmation bias, and seeing what you want to see might even give you hope, which would help you keep at whatever you're doing.

I'd seldom suggest that someone not try to help others who want and need help; but it's not OK to encourage blind action. And it's not helpful to deal in abstractions. So don't, as you wrote previously, disregard the details and ask if poverty is OK. Understand the details, chew them thoroughly, and instead of appealing to a nebulous feeling that you hope people to have, talk about a solution or at the very least define the problem clearly. Even if you're never going to do anything about it, someone else might; and as small a contribution as merely pointing someone else in the right direction may be, it's still worth doing. Sure, we're just two idiots typing at each other on a gaming forum, but if we're typing about something that actually matters to others, I'd say we ought to treat the matter at least as seriously as a coffee table discussion. Wouldn't you?
Hang on a sec. Did I say that I had an ideology but absolutely no idea on how it can be achieved? You're making an awful lot of assumptions. So, I don't agree with your comment that I don't understand the problem and my views are less valuable than praying to some blind faith. I suspect you know more about the economics of Greece than I do but to flat out state that I don't have any understanding of the details is pretty harsh. It seems you've based that comment on my view to strip the problem of its intricacies in order to see the wider impact.

My point throughout is that I don't think we should be bound and shackled by this incessant need to have the economy working as a resolution to the problems in Greece or on a wider scale and I stand by that.

Oh and you came up with the band-aid and bullet holes analogy and then used it against me when I replied.
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pigdog: to flat out state that I don't have any understanding of the details is pretty harsh.
I was quite careful not to say anything of the sort. I did use a generic "you" though several times. Nothing I wrote should have been readable as an attack on you (I should start using "one" to avoid this problem). I'm only saying that one should discuss in a more useful fashion than mere appeal to emotion - sure, include it in a dialog since it's a useful tool, but don't end there.

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pigdog: My point throughout is that I don't think we should be bound and shackled by this incessant need to have the economy working as a resolution to the problems in Greece or on a wider scale and I stand by that.
What do you suppose happens when an economy collapses? I don't have to rely on opinion or hypothesis; there are plenty of good examples. Very few of them are better than wealth inequality.
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pigdog: to flat out state that I don't have any understanding of the details is pretty harsh.
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OneFiercePuppy: I was quite careful not to say anything of the sort. I did use a generic "you" though several times. Nothing I wrote should have been readable as an attack on you (I should start using "one" to avoid this problem). I'm only saying that one should discuss in a more useful fashion than mere appeal to emotion - sure, include it in a dialog since it's a useful tool, but don't end there.

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pigdog: My point throughout is that I don't think we should be bound and shackled by this incessant need to have the economy working as a resolution to the problems in Greece or on a wider scale and I stand by that.
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OneFiercePuppy: What do you suppose happens when an economy collapses? I don't have to rely on opinion or hypothesis; there are plenty of good examples. Very few of them are better than wealth inequality.
Thanks for the healthy debate. I won't derail the thread further but perhaps this subject deserves a new one. I do appreciate and respect your thoughts and opinions though.
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Brasas: You're getting more heated up, which honestly is only amusing me now...[vacuous garbage no one cares about]
Nope just letting you prove me right:
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xSinghx: ...whatever you meant isn't really the point. You simply need to press this nonsense of insisting you've staked out some position that's very obvious except it's not because the only thing you've been consistently capable of expressing is smug posturing - for that you're aces.
Yep - but tell us more about your points.

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Brasas: I see 4 points in my...
Post edited July 15, 2015 by xSinghx
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Gnostic: And how can one place the responsibility for Bankers to be moral and reject impossible loans, when there is a chance to size assets using the debts? It is the same as saying it is the banks fault if someone overspend and blow their credit card, and have to lose their house to the bank. Why it is not the fault of the government that take impossible loans, or the fault of its people who choose the government?
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Phasmid: It ought to be both parties' responsibility, no one is absolving Greece totally and saying it is entirely the banks' fault- though there are plenty saying the reverse of that, that it is all Greece's fault.

It is the banks' fault if they loan irresponsibly, they are supposed to do due diligence in a contract every bit as much as the other party to it, and one of the best ways to make sure that your bank gets nothing at all is to loan to someone who cannot pay back the money- at least theoretically, the sub prime crash was largely a crash of secured credit, mortgages in particular, where the houses had less real value than the mortgages held on them/ buyers could not be found. In this case though the loans were not secured against actual Greek assets as a mortgage would be, they were secured by the belief that the Eurozone would not allow default. Which in a way has proved to be accurate, for them at least

Sadly, when it comes to large banks lending irresponsibly whether it be the sub prime/ derivative/ No Income No Jobs or Assets US 2008 variety or the European variety the adage is 'Too Big To Fail' and while the profits from the irresponsible lending are kept the chickens coming home to roost land firmly in the living room of Joe Taxpayer. And that has massive repercussions, because with no/ massively reduced consequences for their actions there is no pressure to change behaviour and that makes it inevitable that it will happen again, and they'll be bailed out, again.

And as has been pointed out, in various places predatory lending/ loan sharking is actively illegal.
If it's both parties fault then why did the ECB buy debt from private banks using tax payer money knowing that Greece could not pay? How is it Austerity to buy worthless private debt with Tax Payer Money? The ECB is no one to demand Austerity. If there is anyone who should be subjected to Austerity is the ECB for wasting European Tax Payer Money on non-payable debt! So, cry me a river about Greece.
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nicethugbert: If it's both parties fault then why did the ECB buy debt from private banks using tax payer money knowing that Greece could not pay? How is it Austerity to buy worthless private debt with Tax Payer Money? The ECB is no one to demand Austerity. If there is anyone who should be subjected to Austerity is the ECB for wasting European Tax Payer Money on non-payable debt! So, cry me a river about Greece.
They bought debt because they're the European Central Bank, they protect banks in the name of 'stability', they were worried about a Euro Bear Stearns or worse, Lehamnn Brothers and because they could dress it up as all being Greece's fault with a fair chance most will believe them. There's elements of cronyism there, but also elements of genuine concern, the bank bail out is not so much the problem so much as not making sure that it cannot happen again/ not making sure that there were significant consequences is the problem. A one off bail out is justifiable, so long as the problem is fixed. If the problem isn't fixed... you've just told the bankers they can speculate with no major consequence and if they fail the taxpayer will pay.

It isn't austerity to buy worthless debt, they'd say it was to prevent a worse result and with the proviso that Greece would pay it back, theoretically with interest too. The first might be accurate, the second was always a pipe dream. At its heart Austerity is for countries and for poor/ middle class people, not for bankers or the rich as they're supposed to supply the money for the mythical growth that austerity brings. Hence why business tax rates have declined and taxes on the rich have barely moved in Greece, as opposed to taxes targeting the poor and middle classes which have soared.

And frankly, yes, the banking system and ECB could do with a bit of their own medicine, if only to make sure that they know their actions have consequences every bit as much as Greece's have for them. Else if they get away with it it will happen again for the simple reason that they got away with it.
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nicethugbert: If it's both parties fault then why did the ECB buy debt from private banks using tax payer money knowing that Greece could not pay? How is it Austerity to buy worthless private debt with Tax Payer Money? The ECB is no one to demand Austerity. If there is anyone who should be subjected to Austerity is the ECB for wasting European Tax Payer Money on non-payable debt! So, cry me a river about Greece.
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Phasmid: They bought debt because they're the European Central Bank, they protect banks in the name of 'stability', they were worried about a Euro Bear Stearns or worse, Lehamnn Brothers and because they could dress it up as all being Greece's fault with a fair chance most will believe them. There's elements of cronyism there, but also elements of genuine concern, the bank bail out is not so much the problem so much as not making sure that it cannot happen again/ not making sure that there were significant consequences is the problem. A one off bail out is justifiable, so long as the problem is fixed. If the problem isn't fixed... you've just told the bankers they can speculate with no major consequence and if they fail the taxpayer will pay.

It isn't austerity to buy worthless debt, they'd say it was to prevent a worse result and with the proviso that Greece would pay it back, theoretically with interest too. The first might be accurate, the second was always a pipe dream. At its heart Austerity is for countries and for poor/ middle class people, not for bankers or the rich as they're supposed to supply the money for the mythical growth that austerity brings. Hence why business tax rates have declined and taxes on the rich have barely moved in Greece, as opposed to taxes targeting the poor and middle classes which have soared.

And frankly, yes, the banking system and ECB could do with a bit of their own medicine, if only to make sure that they know their actions have consequences every bit as much as Greece's have for them. Else if they get away with it it will happen again for the simple reason that they got away with it.
They already knew thatt hey can get away with it. They got away with it in 2008 when all these scumbag banks did the same exact scam with mortage loans and all the coutries bailed them out, except for Iceland (the only intelligent country in the world). And it's not the only time they have gotten away with it, far from it.

The banks preach Austerity for everyone else but themselves and they are the first ones who need it. It's necessary to nationalize them all to stop their economic warfrare for the good of all. That's their Austerity, and well deserved.
Post edited July 15, 2015 by nicethugbert
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Matruchus: It seems not much is going to happen in Greece now. Over 50 parliamenterians from Siriza party have already denied the European loan and will vote against and the prime minister seems to be hidding before the party. It seems Grexit is now coming near. I wonder if the conditions set by european delegation were set so that Greeks themselves would make an exit. But maybe something will change till tomorrow.
If Greek parliament as a whole does not accept this as negotiation basis then they would commit suicide with their entire country. That is not what sane elected officials would ever do. They are bound by oath to keep all damage from their people and a failed state vs giving up some sovereignty.. it's pretty clear what the "morally right" choice is. It's also worth mentioning that I think Syriza failed to uphold this oath by allowing this referendum, which was the core driving force behind Germany adopting a harsh stance in negotiations.

Also it is worth mentioning that banks are ABSOLUTE systemic vital to the function of a country. How that turns out when banks even half close, you can see very nicely and vividly in Greece. It is not a matter of saving them or not, banks in industrialized nations can NEVER be allowed to close, or the effects would be more disastrous than even a war.

Stratfor weekly had a good write-up on the geopolitical backgrounds for this...

I agree with what someone else already has said. Greece failed to make these reforms a national program. Instead always acting as if this is forced upon them with no fault of their own.
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Atlantico: ... It's more disillusioning to think that someone actually believes that stuff - and even were it true that people cheating out benefits can ruin an economy. ...
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Trilarion: It's interesting to investigate if a general culture of cheating (not just these potential single cases) can indeed ruin an economy especially if done over a long time.
When the cheating is such peanuts as social benefits, then it's just not enough to ruin an economy, but when it's financial institutions.. well, that's hardly an academic question any more.

There was a culture of cheating in most western financial institutions and probably still is, and it can indeed ruin an economy. People cheating the state for welfare or taxes, that's just peanuts.

But a culture of cheating? That's only found in financial institutions as far as I know.
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eRe4s3r: If Greek parliament as a whole does not accept this as negotiation basis then they would commit suicide with their entire country. That is not what sane elected officials would ever do. They are bound by oath to keep all damage from their people and a failed state vs giving up some sovereignty.. it's pretty clear what the "morally right" choice is. It's also worth mentioning that I think Syriza failed to uphold this oath by allowing this referendum, which was the core driving force behind Germany adopting a harsh stance in negotiations.
Excuse me, but this "theon gravejoy" rationale is also the argument of Pétain's apologists : according to it, Pétain would have submitted to the nazi regime (its origin is geographically irrelevant here) in order to spare France the cost of a doomed-to-be-lost war, and, if he hadn't, France would simply have been occupied more brutally, after having paid the immense toll of a military defeat (in reality, this argument is weakened by the zeal with which the Vichy regime had endorsed the nazi ideology, but that's another story). He is still being condemned for this submission by the general population, but this only stresses the moral dilemma of that sort of situation. Submit to injustice (and, apart from Merkel and Schäuble, basically everybody concedes that 1° the debt is unpayable, 2° the austerity policies, as they had been imposed on Greece, were a catastrophic mistake - making the Merkel/Schäuble autistic insistance criminally unjust), or try to revolt against it, at the potential cost of failing and getting double punished. The latter happens to have happened, but this doesn't solve the moral dilemma itself.

And in front of such moral dilemmas, Greece has a history of having made the opposite choice from Pétain's government. One century after the state-founding revolt against the whole Ottoman empire, it has paid an absurd toll in one of Europe's most brutal popular resistance to the nazi occupation (including mass stick-and-stone versus machine gun battles in Athens' street). These historical episodes (along with the polytechnics revolt against the 1970s junta) are very much glorified in national history, meaning that discourses and attitudes are easily shaped by references to them and self-identification to historically past heroics. A submissive attitude is not the first choice you should expect in Greece, or should expect to be morally valorized.

I agree with Tsipras, when he mentions the mistake of having expected too much from Europe, even though he wasn't demanding that much : he was basically asking european leaders to take in account the admitted knowledge of austerity's practical consequences so far in Greece (knowledge with no corollary, apparently), and of the unsustainability of a debt that is still being used as a hypocritical leverage ("pay what we already know you cannot pay, or we kick your ass"). Pushing austerity even further, and maintaining the debt untouched, were an absurd and destructive course of action (as the IMF confirms by refusing to participate in such a "dead-end" strategy if it isn't made at least viable by debt restructuring). So, revolting, in the absolute, would have been the obvious "moral" choice. What made it less obvious (what had set me on the fence on this matter) was the expectable "sociopathic" response of the EU, from whom Tsipras naively expected more rationality : The fact that, indeed, the EU would, not only keep on the same "increasing austerity" path, but would even deliberately aggravate it out of rage in front of a member daring to question it democratically. The moral dilemma was about the high risk of double autistic injustice.

I think there are as many reasons to consider that an appeal to reason and democracy was worth trying, as to consider that it was obviously doomed from the start given the balance of power and the local moral priorities of the dominant states. But, exactly as with Pétain, most of those, in Greece, who were advising against this futile act of rebellion, were actually fully endorsing the austerity ideology and the dogmatic axioms that sustain it, and using the obsequious "you cannot go against the master, the master will punish you, am i right master ?" argument to prevent its questionning. From these people, referring to the morality of the "make or break" dilemma is hypocritical.

Risking EU's punishment was not an obvious "morally wrong choice", because seemingly futile acts of resistance (often defined as futile or fruitful in restrospect, often while overestimating the rationality of the lucky pronostic) can not be morally dimissed like that. However, such choices are often categorized as immoral by people who consider the demand itself as immoral anyway, regardless of the odds. And this has been very much the case in Greece these last months, just as it's been in many different historical situations.

And the same argument can be reversed : the austerity itself, as a bet on a "tough medecine" being worth its human cost, could have been a morally legitimate choice back then. Regardless of its failure. It was only pseudo-"immoral" in retrospect (although it had already some element of immorality for the way many of its supporters don't give a damn about these human costs in any case). It has however ceased to be moral nowadays, as its failure is more and more accepted, pushing its fanatical supporters further into "perseverare diabolicum" territory.

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Apart from that, http://www.voxeurop.eu/en/content/press-review/4956604-greece-might-no-longer-be-country-end-week ...
Post edited July 15, 2015 by Telika
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eRe4s3r: If Greek parliament as a whole does not accept this as negotiation basis then they would commit suicide with their entire country. That is not what sane elected officials would ever do. They are bound by oath to keep all damage from their people and a failed state vs giving up some sovereignty.. it's pretty clear what the "morally right" choice is. It's also worth mentioning that I think Syriza failed to uphold this oath by allowing this referendum, which was the core driving force behind Germany adopting a harsh stance in negotiations.
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Telika: Excuse me, but this "theon gravejoy" rationale

*snip*

I think there are as many reasons to consider that an appeal to reason and democracy was worth trying, as to consider that it was obviously doomed from the start given the balance of power and the local moral priorities of the dominant states. But, exactly as with Pétain, most of those, in Greece, who were advising against this futile act of rebellion, were actually fully endorsing the austerity ideology and the dogmatic axioms that sustain it, and using the obsequious "you cannot go against the master, the master will punish you, am i right master ?" argument to prevent is questionning. From these people, referring to the morality of the "make or break" dilemma is hypocritical.

Risking EU's punishment was not an obvious "morally wrong choice", because seemingly futile acts of resistance (often defined as futile or fruitful in restrospect, often while overestimating the rationality of the lucky pronostic) can not be morally dimissed like that. However, such choices are often categorized as immoral by people who consider the demand itself as immoral anyway, regardless of the odds. And this has been very much the case in Greece these last months, just as it's been in many different historical situations.
It is imo not a "theon gravejoy" rationale, though I really like that choice of words, but Realpolitik. Cold, hard Realpolitik.

The moment Tsipras tried to offer a moral resistance (via referendum) to Realpolitik he essentially admitted that he didn't understand how big power politics work.... that in itself was the biggest defeat of him in these negotiations. By thinking the negotiation had even a BASIS in morals, he confused that at the core a technocratic monetary union follows the harshest form of Realpolitik possible. He isn't talking country : country. He is talking institution of 19 : country.

This reminds me of an Interview I read of Varoufakis where he thought politics on that level where like an academic discourse (sound economic argument beats silly political argument ).. where I nearly died of laughter at the naivety of this. Realpolitik had already chained all countries into a path of action and position here, any opposition by Greece was only a visual effect, not an actual negotiation power that could lead to a different agreement.

As stratfor writes, any concession to Greece in regards to debt cut or austerity would have splintered the entire Eurozone and destabilized half a dozen countries with real world suffering and pain for those people there, with ripples globally causing harm. It would be criminally unjust for the 18 other governments to allow this just because Greece wants special treatment. ;)

Austerity alone doesn't help of course... the problem is that in the past 5 years, Greece has successfully... delayed all agreed reforms. And not actually done a single one of em Greece happily cut and cut and raised taxes, and invented new taxes, but it never once reformed any important element of the broken Greek systems and institutions.
http://satwcomic.com/a-zorba-slowing-down

is this how swedes sees it? or just dumb arty farty types?
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dick1982: http://satwcomic.com/a-zorba-slowing-down

is this how swedes sees it? or just dumb arty farty types?
That's a silly project of basement dweller girl.
Even polandball is more accurate.
http://imgur.com/gallery/35zxBKg