No IMF / ECB or EU (I assume you meant ESF) program can ever happen without that nations government agreeing to it. Why do you think the institutions are so pissed at Greece? Greece signed the agreements 5 years ago, and broke them on the 30th June midnight when they walked out of negotiations that were part of the 2nd help programs modus of operation. When Tsipras walked out of these negotiations without finalizing them the entire 2nd bailout program *ended*. Flat out, and literally. There isn't even a basis of negotiation now. All negotiations are reset to ZERO

This is something you can not know if you are not inside the EU and part of this whole mess, so I won't blame you for not knowing this. Many many populists falsely portray how this whole thing worked especially from Greek side. Who apparently all forgot that the Greece government signed the program 5 years ago in return for a limited debt cut. (limited because it did not erase all debt, it just reduced it and shuffled repayment times around)

There are many different things at work here too. The ECB keeps Greeks banks alive. If they stop giving credit to Greek banks, those banks are bankrupt within 14 days. Today is day 6 of the end of the ECB emergency fund payments hence banks in Greece currently on the brink of collapse.

The IMF gives credit for reforms. That's their entire reason of existence. But there is no dictate, you sign an agreement to get money and do these reforms. If you disagree, you don't get money ;p

And finally, the ESF is what restructures Greek debt and secured international banks that had connections from collapse. So far they failed at doing much of anything.

All 3 elements are connected and none are dictated.

It's also worth mentioning that Greece is not actually defaulting on it's original debts. Those are all delayed. Greece is already failing at repayment of the actual programs it took 5 years ago. The repayment of which is part of the deal Greece signed. When they didn't pay that IMF rate, Greece gov defacto defaulted. But technically it is only a delayed payment, and an actual default has to be established with complicated processes.... point being. Greece is not yet bankrupt.. but it defaulted on the partial repayment of a help program.

For example Syriza is clinging to the reduced VAT for the islands. (see for example http://www.thepressproject.net/article/68659/Troika-Greece-must-repeal-reduced-VAT-on-the-islands)

I don't think they should have. Having an equal tax rate seems much more fairer for everyone.

Is this demonization of Syriza or is Syriza just part of the Greek establishment (as anyone else) or is Syriza not communicating enough the economic neccessity of low taxes on the islands or are they just incapable of bringing their country forward by implementing the neccessary reforms and outsiders have to tell them what is the best?

I'm not sure but my gut feeling tells me equal VAT rate everywhere might be better. (In the US VAT is variable but then US is much larger then Greece.)

Anyway this just might be a minor thing though. But in general, the less exceptions you have (except those for basic products like basic food, water, shelter, energy) the better you are protected against corruption.

Uh. VAT is the most unfair tax possible. Progressive taxes exist for a reason : the impact of money losses on life levels decrease as you are richer. Losing 10€ is not the same to you if you own 50€ or 500'000'000€. Even losing 50% of your money is not the same if you have to live with 100€ or with 1'000'000€. Flat taxations are only "fair" if you are wealthy and strongly against wealth redistribution.

Between that and the IMF "tax the poor more, leave corporations alone", I can see how this vote result was an urgent necessity. The imposed neoliberal doctrine was way more ideologically caricatural than I expected. And the hypocrisy of the accusations of the greeks (as reluctant to reform taxation, etc), from a political current generally hellbent on legalizing tax evasions (lump sum taxations, tax cuts) at the cost of social services (oh wait now the state has no money anymore, so, uh, well, let's suppress all these sevices that rich people don't need anyway), goes even farther than expected.

I hope Greece will manage to find a financial balance. If anything, it can only get easier now than with the former diktats on further pauperisation of the vulnerable people and shielding of corporations. Can't get much worse anyway. Greece really didn't need such supplementary obstacles.

In practice, this "haratzi" (collectively nicknamed that way in reference to the occupation taxes of the ottoman empire) was a tax that was hitting poor people quite hard, and it was implemented through the electricity bill, meaning that people who failed to pay it had their electricity cut. This was later ruled inconstitutionnal. So, this whole thing has been a huge issue all these last years. But yeah, with this and VAT, we got it. Taxing vulnerable people to death doesn't harm the export industry, so, why question the targets. Damn communists, and all.

Really, the ideology of social darwinism in all its splendor. I guess these super-rich shipping company owners would have been safe for quite a while...

We do not have VAT at all in the US. US sales tax is a retail tax only... it works differently than VAT. I work for a consulting firm. We don't have to charge sales tax for the services we provide, because they are not physical retail goods, but as I understand it, we would have to charge VAT for services if we were an EU firm.

Varoufakis was right in one of his statements; they don't need new or higher taxes...they need
an instituation that could and would collect the taxes.

Obviously. And a system that wouldn't allow to the deeply rich to tax evade with state's blessing. Or to people with some money in banks to migrate it over to foreign countries. And a system to fight corruption, like the people feigning disability and getting raised pensions for "healthcare". And a system to put politicians who "ate" public money behind bars, while confiscating ALL of their ill gotten riches. And inspect who receives european investments and for what purpose; not every boorish idiot owning 10 trees get one and instead of organizing agricultural system and exports, buying a Lamborgini tractor, a villa, a sports car, a swimming pool and god knows what else, instead...

Here the place is full of three groups; complete idiots who don't have a clue about anything happening around and have to pay up for everything others spoiled, filthy rich bastards/politicians who are the main perpetrators behind economy's black hole locally and foreign agents who "invest" and profit by exploiting "weak points" and people, like the Siemens and Defense Cost scandals (sold to us malfunctional submarines and helicopters for extravagant price), before. And germany still didn't allow the greek mastermind (Hristoforakos) of that rotten Siemens scandal to return here for trial and conviction.

Tinfoil hats on!
There is an old phrase about "Ghost of communism walking in Europe".
Now we have ghost of democracy.
Funny historical moment - when Stalin met Roosevelt in Yalta, he listened to his description of democracy and concluded that "americans understand "democracy" as power of people. American people".

Greece was under direct economical control (you SHOULD pay EU-level welfare, it's a law of Eurozone, you SHOULD close you yards, Germany builds ships...). Yep, this was bad for Greece. WHY they did this... Small research on bios of Greek leaders shows that for last 20 years they were ruled by people which studied in US.

It killed their real economic.
Bailout of Greece simply amassed debt in the hands of Troika(or US, as a main EU creditor), so they could purchase real property for cheap without sharing with everyone.
http://i.imgur.com/MOCm4ua.png

You don't see bigger scale. EU has economical center... and no Political center.
Yes, there is Europarliament. Where German vote can be outweighed by 3 votes from human centipede of Baltic countries (which so deep on US credits that there is no return point for them).
Latvia, EU member
http://imgur.com/gallery/TrvCa
Green country = no manufacturing, no jobs
No jobs = people succumb into prostitution
http://www.businessinsider.com/google-cost-searches-2015-4
Most searched product in Latvia.
There is no foreseeable improvements in their future, so people emigrate, seeking better place to live.
[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Latvia#/media/File:Population-of-Latvia.PNG]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Latvia#/media/File:Population-of-Latvia.PNG[/url]
They lost 25% of population

Same with Lithuania
[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Lithuania#/media/File:Population_of_Lithuania.PNG]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Lithuania#/media/File:Population_of_Lithuania.PNG[/url]
They lost 10%

Estonia
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Population_of_Estonia_%281970-2010%29.png
They lost 15%


With CONSTANTLY negative trade balance Spanish goods become less and less competitive.
After Greece crisis credits would cost to companies even more, further decreasing competitiveness.
With war in the middle east burning stronger and stronger influx of broken uneducated refuges, incapable of working in modern economy would burden Spain even more.
Yes, current growth is a positive - sales managers getting jobs, taking credits, purchasing cars, houses, iphones... then another bubble would pop... and voila - bankruptcy.

This is only one side of the story. Everyone who wants to spend some money should explain where it should come from, otherwise this would be quite dishonest, wouldn't it?

Let's say the goal is to
- support the poor and
- get the economy going (especially the export)

You would not
- tax the poor nor
- tax the income (also corporations income) except for really high incomes

But in order to balance your budget you would then have to
- cut expenses for all but the poor (like pensions above a certain level) and
- tax the rich (property tax, wealth tax) and
- fight corruption like there is no tomorrow

So: cut expenses for all but the poor and tax the rich and fight corruption but save the poor and the incomes except for the really high incomes.

I'm not firm with what exactly Syriza and Anel implemented of this since january - I only know of the Thessaloniki Programme of Syriza from 2014 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thessaloniki_Programme or http://www.tovima.gr/en/article/?aid=631486) which rather asked for a lot of money for spending on the welfare state (not exactly only the poor). Extremely unbalanced programme and would probably never work.

This was during election battle, so Tsipras surely promised more than he can keep but one can probably safely say that until the last months Syriza and Tsipras had no idea/plan to cut any expenses at all. They just believed (and probably some of the Greek voters with them) that all others would just throw money at them. Pretty much a massive (quite foreseeable) delusion it turned out.

So, is it really Social darwinism or just simply overly entitlement of Greece versus missing solidarity of the other EU countries?

Varoufakis resigns, I guess greeces loss is gamings gain...or something :

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-07-06-former-valve-economist-yanis-varoufakis-quits-as-greeces-finance-minister?utm_source=eurogamer&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=net-daily


EXCERPT :

"Soon after the announcement of the referendum results, I was made aware of a certain preference by some Eurogroup participants, and assorted 'partners', for my... 'absence' from its meetings; an idea that the Prime Minister judged to be potentially helpful to him in reaching an agreement. For this reason I am leaving the Ministry of Finance today," he wrote in a defiant blog post.

"I consider it my duty to help Alexis Tsipras exploit, as he sees fit, the capital that the Greek people granted us through yesterday's referendum.

"And I shall wear the creditors' loathing with pride."

Greek banks are running out of money and on the verge of collapse, and it is feared Greece is heading for an exit from the euro.

As for Varoufakis, he is yet to indicate his next move. Perhaps a return to Valve beckons?

It's not really capital in the usual sense of capital. I'm thinking the whole day and also the last weeks about a solution to the problems of Greece that doesn't cost a fortune and honestly, except the exit I have not found a good solution.

The only other alternative is that miraculously Greece gets a government which is willing to fight corruption hard and makes the right mix of cuts and supports while at the same time EU leaders discover the virtues of balanced budgets flanked by investments in times of trouble.

Both seems so very unlikely that the only real solution left is a temporary euro exit of Greece and a subsequent debt restructuring.

I wish Merkel and others would have acted differently already in 2010, I wish Greeks would have voted for a party that is honest, non-corrupt, non-established, doesn't promise to spend a lot of money they don't have and even more I wish Greece would not have got the euro in 2002 when they were not ready for it.

Now the best solution is to undo the error of introducing the euro and to restart with a sustainable debt level.

If Greece exits the euro, Syriza would see that you can only spend what you earn while the rest of the world would see how competitive Greece can be and how nice a country not only for tourism it can be.

Heh. If Greece would sustain EU oppression, they would be able to transit Russian gas (Russia->Turkey->Greece).
More sane partner than Ukraine.

Russia? Very rarely nowadays are the words sane and Russia used in conjunction. I suspect Vlad the mad would charge a heavy political price on Greece in order to secure such a situation. One that would be way worse than Europe, and one that Ukraine isn't willing to pay (even with that nutcase sending in men to kill Ukraine's citizens).

Well, yeah. Poland had selective breeding program in Ukraine to make them their slaves. Look, how genetic memory works. http://i.imgur.com/8aLHpDr.jpg

Now US controls Ukraine to the point where Senate appoints them ministers.
http://i.imgur.com/NKvAovA.jpg
Sure, they back them in press.

Do you REALLY believe that Russia CAN'T conquer Ukraine, whose army looks like that
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3144833/Ukrainian-troops-locked-metal-cages-punishment-drunk.html

Gas - perfect fuel. Greece probably would get discount and would be able to build plants, whose production would be more competitive because of it.

About Crimea -
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-02-06/one-year-later-crimeans-prefer-russia

Obama is not the shining example of a good leader you think he is. He had nothing to do with gay marriage - that was the Supreme Court. Withdrawing from the Middle East left it vulnerable to ISIS. Healthcare? It's too new to say if the system will work or not but it will certainly add a big chunk to our debt since its sources of funding have been or are likely to be removed by special interest groups via our politicians (e.g. the Cadillac tax and the medical device tax). Also, healthcare has really not become any more affordable for those of us in rural areas unless you count the people who went on Medicaid. The stimulus? Yes our economy is better than it was in 2009, but the stimulus added trillions to our national debt and we are not doing all that great. I think long-term Obama will be seen as a below average president. Personally I would switch leaders with you in a second, Merkel doesn't seem too bad and Germany appears to be recovering nicely from the financial crisis without having racked up the debt the US has.

Some people in this thread say stimulus is the way to go for Greece. I agree in part, but there should definitely be a mixture of stimulus and austerity. In the US we had only stimulus and, while we're chugging along with a so-so (at best) economy, the anvil (our national debt) hanging over our heads has gotten much larger. I'm hoping I'll die before the anvil falls, but for people with children it will be falling on their heads. No politician that would preach austerity in the form of reducing pensions or social security payments will be able to get elected. I hope the Greek politicians have the sense and bravery to bring their country back from the edge, it's going to be difficult. They really need to get private investors involved and may need to sell some of their property to get something done, like what is happening in Detroit. Difficult things will have to be done to save the country for future generations like reducing pensions and collecting unpaid taxes, I also hope the Greek people realize this.