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Trilarion: One thing about the referendum is that as far as I know the Greek government has not clearly indicated what a NO means in the referendum. This would be of course not very good because in a successfull referendum must have two meaningful, clear options. Does NO mean that Greece exits the euro or the EU or just that the government continues the negotiations (if there is any negotiation left) or what exactly are the options then. Maybe I have not read enough and the Greek government has actually a plan for the NO case but currently I doubt it. That's not good. They should clearly say what they are going to do in the NO case.

In general I wonder why there are some countries on earth who are totally corrupt and some who are a bit less (so that most things still work) corrupt? What is the cause for the difference. See this map (http://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results) and you see a clear inverse relation between the wealth and the corruption but it's totally not clear what is the cause and what is the result of these two. So basically I'm asking: Is economic success causing suppressed corruption or is suppressed corruption causing economic success or is both expression of another yet unknown underlying factor? Why do some people get easily corrupt and others not? Maybe it's some other cultural factor or simply chance or even religion?

What I would have liked if Greek people at some point would have gathered in Athen and demanded the strongest anti-corruption laws in the world backed by the stronged executional actions (both of which did not happen) because they were fed up with how the corrupt politicians (society) of the last 20 years ruined their country but that didn't happen. My impression is that there is much work still to do to uncover all the crimes that have happened in the past instead there is a big chance they just get away but at least then one should make sure this will not happen again and as it looks now corruption can easily / and does happen still in Greece.
1) The referendum thing. It is about accepting or not the current EU demands (Yes) or keep asking for a more decent deal (No). That's pretty simple. On top of that, the ever-democratic EU (that had forbidden Papandreou's similar referendum a few years ago) is super pissed that the question is even asked to the population, so they are all "if you vote yes, we will expell you". It is a separate factor. The question is not "do you want to stay in the Eurozone" at all, but the EU's threatening response tries to redefine the question that way.

In other words, I keep a knife to your throat and ask your wallet. You can ask yourself "shall i give the wallet or shall I try to negociate another solution". Holding the knife, I tell you "try to negociate another solution and I cut your throat, so what you are actually asking yourself is : shall I give my wallet or die".

There is no ambiguity on the question, and the intentions about which it ask. But there are disputes about the consequences, which the threatening party (bluffing or not) tries to present as purely mechanical ("I will just happen to slice your throat if you argue, so, what you mean is that you want me to slice your throat ? It's your responsability alone.").

2) Corruption is another can of worm, and if I go into details here, the rampant drooling anti-intellectuals of this forum will burn the place down ("oh noes, wurds, ma skull it hurtz"). But, in short-ish : "Corruption" is a questionable notion, that covers too many too different practices driven by too different motives (greed, generosity, social duty, etc). It basically contrasts them with the "good practices" of western european rational-legal organisations, and its own proclaimed values. In many cultures, these (blind, anonymous, indifferent, state-centered) bureaucratic practices clash with traditional moral priorities (network solidarities, interpersonal relationships, haggling and negociation, informal pragmatic problem-solving, etc). Where bureaucratic practices clash with traditional values, you easily get "hybrid" practices that are labelled as "corrupt" (deviations from the expected bureacratic mechanical functionning).

Like the word "terrorism", "corruption" can be used to designate the informal practices and sense of duties of Others. Depending on ideologies, an act of corruption can be judged as positive or negative. Typically : some see corruption in a "closed market" country as a positive informal evolution towards capitalism, but would consider awfully corrupt a deal that ignores higher bidders in an "open market" context - and reciprocally. In some (ex-)colonies, some would consider "corrupt" (by the State and by their status) a public servant who ignores his traditional family duty and treats everyone the same way - while the administration would have the opposite judgement.

In addition to that, many bloated dysfunctional bureaucracies (and Greece is one) offer many opportunities for greedy corruption, and even requires informal shortcuts to wade through the administrative labyrinth (both aspects are linked, as keeping the bureaucracy labyrinthic is also a way to ensure the need for shortcuts). And then, there is also the question of what is not designated as corruption, but as mere "good practices", in various countries (which tends to invisibilize corruption in the countries that impose that label to analogous "kickbacks" or clientelist practices in others). And then there is the question of "democratization" of corruption, if I may say : countries where (petty) corruption is more visible because the common people do it, while in other countries (aggravated) corruption takes place behind the elite's curtains.

Complex matter, if you're genuinely interested. Two articles full of words to make the forum goons cry all the tears of their bodies :

A classic article on the anthropology of "corruption" in Africa.

An LSE critique of the notion of corruption and TI's underlying ideology.

The question of the effects of diverse forms of corruption is complex (sometimes they work as clunky stopgap systems, sometimes they block a system, sometimes they "lubricate" it, etc), but if you are interested in the causes (mostly, how the practices get more or less legitimized by their own actors), then such anthropological approaches are what you're looking for.

As for Greece, "corruptional" practices are pretty widespread (as are informal solutions, non-impersonal contacts, and network solidarities - all of which indirectly facilitate it). People there often disagree on what is or isn't "real corruption" (mostly : is it done out of solidarity or out of greed), and when they do it, they explain that they are being forced by circumtances (the competition of other people who use these tools, the crippling bureaucracy, or mere financial neccessity). The consensus is that corruption is bad, but unavoidable given the "system". Many claim that suppressing (petty) "corruption" without reforming said "system" would just make it worse. But again, this depends a lot on what type of "corruption" is being talked about.
Post edited July 03, 2015 by Telika
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Riotact: Well, I'm pretty sure that none of that is going on any more in Ireland, but I suppose you can never be 100% certain (but in the 70's and 80's they were all severe problems here).
What was it about this tape they found about Irish bankers making fun of the EU?

I think that pissed of quite some Irish ;) Been there, loved the people!!!! Open and having a good heart (So long you are not English ;) , sorry couldn´t resists ;) )

I think, this is still in their memory, same as the Church-problems, might have been put under corruption as well, rightly IMHO.
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Riotact: Well, I'm pretty sure that none of that is going on any more in Ireland, but I suppose you can never be 100% certain (but in the 70's and 80's they were all severe problems here).
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Goodaltgamer: What was it about this tape they found about Irish bankers making fun of the EU?

I think that pissed of quite some Irish ;) Been there, loved the people!!!! Open and having a good heart (So long you are not English ;) , sorry couldn´t resists ;) )

I think, this is still in their memory, same as the Church-problems, might have been put under corruption as well, rightly IMHO.
Glad you had a good time here, As far back as I can remember we have always had a great relationship with german tourists, they came here in droves for Guinness and The Dubliners music, My parents had a bar/hotel in the west of Ireland when I grew up and had some great german friends that came every year and eventually moved here to live when they retired. But at night there would be as many germans as irish people in the bar there having a great time!

As regards the bankers, Yeah, those fuckers were taking the piss out of everyone here, we are still holing an inquiry into this and the bank guarantees etc. Despite some EU people declining to participate even though their version of events are being virulently contradicted here.

As regards England, OK we have 700 years of antagonistic history there, but slowly and surely it is being eroded by swapping heads of state visits and...er...stag and hen party's :)

The whole church thing, well that too is being eroded, just take the recent referendum where we legalised same sex marriage, the church did their best to fuck that up, but in the end they got the message to fuck off and deal with religion and leave the secular stuff to civilians, not all gay people are catholic and I doubt any of them would consider getting married in a catholic church of all places. :)

We would like to take this opportunity to apologise for Bono.... :P
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Riotact: Glad you had a good time here, snip
The best part was, I was over with a normal car over there (yeah not those stupid cars with the steering wheel on the wrong side ;) ). To be precise a diesel

That was always a good joke ;)

But I remember that even your sheep didn´t like the English either ;)

Once upon a time I was cruising along near Galway, when I turned round a corner, somewhere in middle of bloody nowhere and there was this English-driver being blogged by a herd of them. I honked shouted and whatever. They just ignored him ;)
As nothing happened I overtook him and just moved towards the herd, increases a bit the RPM´s and rolled forward. Next you know (ok, I expected it ;) ) I moved through them while they were behaving like water just moving around my car and letting me through. When I watched my mirror, I saw this poor lad sitting behind his steering wheel and biting into it ;). I am not sure, if they let him pass through till nowadays ;)

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Riotact: As regards the bankers, Yeah, those fuckers were taking the piss out of everyone here, we are still holing an inquiry into this and the bank guarantees etc. Despite some EU people declining to participate even though their version of events are being virulently contradicted here.
Good to hear, here in Germany more or less nothing happens, And unfortunate not a lot is being reported regarding this on the public channels, maybe just a side-note.

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Riotact: As regards England, OK we have 700 years of antagonistic history there, but slowly and surely it is being eroded by swapping heads of state visits and...er...stag and hen party's :)
I know, the Ulster-question :( Bad story.....

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Riotact: The whole church thing, well that too is being eroded, just take the recent referendum where we legalised same sex marriage, the church did their best to fuck that up, but in the end they got the message to fuck off and deal with religion and leave the secular stuff to civilians, not all gay people are catholic and I doubt any of them would consider getting married in a catholic church of all places. :)

We would like to take this opportunity to apologise for Bono.... :P
First: You don´t need to apologies for Bono, it wasn´t the Irish PEOPLE!

And kudos for this decision!!!!! Not a lot of countries (cath.) even dared too implement!!

Our fucked up politicians of the CDU/CSU (so called Christion parties) were asked the next day, what their stance is: If you guessed no, you are right :(

But fuck them, they already lost! Don´t you know an Irish gay couple who would like to piss of some German politicans and have them move over here??? *evilgrin*
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Riotact:
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Goodaltgamer: But I remember that even your sheep didn´t like the English either ;)

Once upon a time I was cruising along near Galway, when I turned round a corner, somewhere in middle of bloody nowhere and there was this English-driver being blogged by a herd of them. I honked shouted and whatever. They just ignored him ;)

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Riotact: We would like to take this opportunity to apologise for Bono.... :P
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Goodaltgamer:
Yeah but WE gave him a Passport :P

I think that English bloke is probably still there, Irish sheep don't take any shit from anyone, they are utter baaastards like that :P

Sorry for such an untidy post but this site shits pure evil when you try to edit quotes :)
Post edited July 03, 2015 by Riotact
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Riotact: Yeah but WE gave him a Passport :P

I think that English bloke is probably still there, Irish sheep don't take any shit from anyone, they are utter baaastards like that :P
Oookay ;) Bloody Irish!!! ;)

hmmm, I din´t had any problem with them ;)

And directly a warning to everyone who wants to visit Ire with a car, those sheep and cows are roaming freely, so don´t be surprise and always be prepared ;)
PS: I know, I do everything manual as well ;)
Post edited July 03, 2015 by Goodaltgamer
Votes are counted now. You can follow the results here:
[url=http://ekloges.ypes.gr/current/e/public/index.html?lang=en#{%22cls%22:%22level%22,%22params%22:{%22level%22:%22epik%22,%22id%22:1]http://ekloges.ypes.gr/current/e/public/index.html?lang=en#{%22cls%22:%22level%22,%22params%22:{%22level%22:%22epik%22,%22id%22:1[/url]}}

60% of "NO" currently. Hope tomorrow will confirm this so maybe there will finally be some changes in Eurozone.
So early indications are that the "No" vote (to EU austerity measures) are leading the votes (based on 10% of ballot papers counted). If there are any Greeks who want to provide occasional real time updates of how it's progressing and they're feeling, I'd like it if you would post what you can, when you can.
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catpower1980: Votes are counted now. You can follow the results here:
[url=http://ekloges.ypes.gr/current/e/public/index.html?lang=en#{%22cls%22:%22level%22,%22params%22:{%22level%22:%22epik%22,%22id%22:1]http://ekloges.ypes.gr/current/e/public/index.html?lang=en#{%22cls%22:%22level%22,%22params%22:{%22level%22:%22epik%22,%22id%22:1[/url]}}

60% of "NO" currently. Hope tomorrow will confirm this so maybe there will finally be some changes in Eurozone.
Ninja'd
Post edited July 05, 2015 by pigdog
I'm really surprised the vote is trending towards no. Kinda thought the media scaremongers would have done their magic again. Still, even a no vote means short term chaos and problems. But the long term future will mean a chance for clear skies. Cutting the strings of the banker puppet masters isn't always an easy thing to do.
Well, goodbye Greece. It was nice having you.
Remember: No Greek.

(that's a play on words, not... well, you know)
Post edited July 05, 2015 by Titanium
[url=http://www.google.gr/imgres?imgurl=http://th04.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2012/047/1/4/witcher_2__aryan_la_valette_by_jakecarver-d4pwxv5.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.gamesas.com/the-invasion-hammerfell-ooc-t301497.html&h=707&w=1131&tbnid=eqDKEMcxAON2YM:&zoom=1&docid=VCVKTsMuLyvzbM&ei=HYSZVcnIGMGqUrT-goAB&tbm=isch&ved=0CCAQMygCMAI]http://www.google.gr/imgres?imgurl=http://th04.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2012/047/1/4/witcher_2__aryan_la_valette_by_jakecarver-d4pwxv5.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.gamesas.com/the-invasion-hammerfell-ooc-t301497.html&h=707&w=1131&tbnid=eqDKEMcxAON2YM:&zoom=1&docid=VCVKTsMuLyvzbM&ei=HYSZVcnIGMGqUrT-goAB&tbm=isch&ved=0CCAQMygCMAI[/url]
Oh my, bad day for Greece. 60% of Greeks are celebrating their victory, but aren't aware that Greece critics all around Europe are celebrating with them, because they think they've dug their own grave :-(
congratz to the greece people, i think they made the right and a very wise decision. thats the fist step into a better future.
When people are not blackmailed... When people are victimized by democracy's propaganda... When people aren't intimidated by the instigated bank closure... Sure, this RAREST of occasions NEEDS celebrating! I was dead certain that yesmen would kiss arses and lick boots, as usual.

I don't know about others and i don't care. But i myself never wanted to be part of europe. Others chose for me. And i certainly didn't want inside euro. Others chose for me. And now i pay consequences for OTHERS' choices, not mine and me who never had a single debt in my life, found myself owing money.

Better future is dead certain that is off limits. But who cares... When i have to choose between WORSE future or NO future, i 'll gladly take the lesser of evils, of course. And no fake ass stranger will tell me whom i elect or what i vote.

And we like Russians. The shitty countermeasures the european dorks passed off against them, caused them to put certain trade goods of us in embargo. Why we have to shoulder the consequences or Europe's stupidity in challenging Badass Putin and co? Why should we be threatened from "allies" to not do business with Russians, like that gas business and even receive assassination threats? (older, past prime minister was to be assassinated for that damn gas business).

Go take your threats and warmongering elsewhere, sons. To people who are willing and able to receive them. Here be people who know when to say NO and when enough is more than enough, really.
Post edited July 05, 2015 by KiNgBrAdLeY7