I can understand why there is a lot of hatred inside Europeans because of what is going on with Greece. But why is a lot of this hatred going towards all the Greek people instead of just towards the people who are ruling Greece and the people who have been ruling Greece? It seems to me, the majority of Greek people have nothing to do with this so they don't deserve the hatred going towards them. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Just a correction. The debt was created for many years but was magnified especially after our dictatorship. So 1974 and onwards. From 1974, 2 political parties reigned : PASOK and ND.
The truth about the debt was "discovered" in 2010 after PASOK got into power. Then they started the plans for the reforms and in 2012 new elections were announced. ND won the election and ruled along with PASOK and another kind of leftist (but with middle-beliefs in reality) party. They reformed some more and then SYRIZA was voted in 2015.

Our politicians lied in Europe not to get into the EU, but for Greece to adopt Euro as a currency.

Just to set it straight :)

cutting peoples income(lower wages, pensions, etc), increased cost of living(taxes, health costs,etc) takes money out of people's pockets. leading to less domestic spending which will always have a negative impact on the economy.
Couple that with the fact that the country in 2010 was already weakened by the financial crisis and the impact is even bigger. When private investments are basically already in standby mode, then cutting public investment and sending thousands of public workers into unemployment or early retirement doesn't help you to stimulate the economy.
I am rather surprised you are asking this ?
As far as i know even politicians who advocate the austerity measures accept the fact that it has a negative effect on the economy. But they simply assume (or wish) that the government spending is cut faster than the economy shrinks.
Though iirc even the IMF has acknowledged by now that their assumption back in 2010 were simply wrong.
With the heavy shrinking of the economy all that expense cutting was mostly for nothing as the income was dropping as well.
What is your reasoning for assuming that austerity didn't hurt the economy?

I mean, look at how Germany acted when the crisis hit them. There was a massive economic stimulus program. No matter the cost and the increase in national debt.
Yet in Greece politicians suddenly claimed that the economy can simply be revived by fixing the national budget. So there was no stimulus program, no tax incentives to get companies to invest again. There was only cutting of national expenses and increase of national income. All that seemed to matter was that the country will achieve a primary surplus.
The economy will surely magicaly fix itself.
Would it have really hurt so much if Greece back then would have dumped a few billion into its economy instead of primarly spending it on repaying debts and interests?
Why all this insane obsession to achieve a positive budget balance when the countries economy is in a depression?
(hey, germany achieved a non-negative budget this year for the first time since the 50s or 60s)

but still, now 5 years later there is no sign, especially from german politicians, to even entertain the idea that all this austerity talk just maybe isn't the best solution.

Thanks for the clarification Epitaph, much appreciated :)

So is your message that channeling more debt money to e.g. wages in the public sector and pensions will create sustainable economic growth in Greece, not only for the time period when you pump that money, and not just increase their debt? How much of e.g. the extra pension money is stimulating real economic growth, instead of the pensioners just saving the money into their bank accounts, or even moving it outside of Greece?

We have a saying here that peeing in your pants in the winter will make you feel warmer in the short term, but make you even colder in the long run.

As I said, pumping more debt money to the economy makes sense when the problems are seasonal. It makes matters worse in the long run when the problems are structural.

I am surprised you really believe that pumping debt money to a sick economy will fix it. When the basic problem is that a country is spending far more than they can afford to for decades, pumping even more debt money into it will not make it better in the long run.

When the economic growth hasn't been sustainable but been based largely on debt money, of course the economy will shrink when the creditors won't give you more money, and/or maintaining your old debts becomes too burdensome.

All it demonstrates is that your economy has been in unrealistic levels, as it has been based on debt money, not on how much you produce. Norway, India and China are opposite examples, as they get shitloads of income from the outside world (Norway from oil, and India/China from services and products), so their economic growth is more sustainable, even if there may be a risk of real estate bubble in some areas.

No, they have acknowledged that their estimations may have been too optimistic (quite normal with estimations, e.g. I may make estimations how I can pay my mortgage, but then I have to make assumptions on my ability to do so for the following decades, on interest rates etc.). They didn't acknowledge that channeling debt money to higher pensions and to a bigger public sector is the key to Greece's problems.

What in your eyes is the core reason for Greece's problems? Isn't it their huge debt that has accumulated over decades? Where did they use it? Wasn't it largely for higher pensions, more work and higher wages on the public sector, bigger army etc.? Or did someone steal the money and take it abroad?

Common sense. The economy thrived on debt money, and when those channels dried up, down the economy goes.

Did Germany simply channel more money to higher pensions and bigger public sector, and that is how Germany got out of its problems? As I recall, Germany made big reforms to e.g. labor legislation.

Also take into account that Germany has a diverse export industry that brings them money, not mainly based on olive oil, olives and tourism. Germany's economic problems were _more_ (but not only) seasonal than structural, and Germany did reforms that Greece is fighting not to do.

After all, Germans have been blamed for not spending enough, ie, austerity, which doesn't cause problems to Germany itself (but makes it more powerful in comparison)... but other European countries. If anything, Germany is a prime example that "austerity" works, whatever one wants to understand with austerity.

Also, if Greece was indeed "stimulating" its economy with its own money, we wouldn't have this discussion really. Now they are asking other EU countries, like Finland, to "stimulate" it (albeit I don't feel the public sector and pensions are the sustainable way to stimulate it). I'd much rather use all that money to stimulate our own economy, which is also in trouble, not just as bad.. At the same time, reforms must be made here. If we can't afford the current size of our public sector, then we simply can't. We also have spent much more than we earn for many years, and we have many structural problems too that will not go away by just waiting (like, paper industry will not probably just magically pick up here, or Nokia becoming #1 in mobile phones again).

Greece should just be turned into a giant holiday park where all the residents have to work until the country's debts are paid off.

First, the quote.

Then to go on some definitions.
First what i originally thought.

Racism, is the act of believing that a certain race (or races) in the world have certain qualities (that you actually acquire through life, for example, being a thief, a liar, a pedophile, a rapist , lazy etc). And of course that other races (usually their own country's race) have good qualities and should prevail.
So you hate those "Bad Races" and want the "Good Races" to prevail and rule earth. That's not bad of course.
I mean who wouldn't like a world without Murderers, Rapists, Thieves and Pedophiles.

The thing is, that is theory is utterly STUPID. And that's because the own who produces this racism is generalizing.

Nationalism : What i think of this term, is people, praising their own country and wanting every other person in their country that doesn't have their nationality, to leave. Of course this has many levels. There are people that want only "White Swedes" in Sweden, so any other nationality should flee Sweden, and people that might be ok with other people (from Africa f.e.) to become Swedes, as long as they've come to Sweden legally.

What this guy, does is MUCH, MUCH closer to the definition of racism. Essentially Nationalism is MUCH more about praising your own country and it's success and much less about talking shit for other countries.

Edit : Ok it was early in the morning when i initially read his message (7 o clock, then i left to go for some housework and returned to answer). Now i understand that he was using Irony. But the thing still stands. He thinks that all or most Greeks are lazy bums because the country has a huge debt. So yeah... The essence of racism on a national level. Unfortunately to some GOGlodytes' dismay this is NOT called Nationalism.

Can't you add to the discussion instead of detracting from it? You've never said at any point how you see things, you just keep attacking posters and telling them they're wrong. If you can't explain your view of the situation, what you think the problem is and how you think it could be solved, then your words are irrelevant. Please stop trolling.

Followed by one important fiscal rule - never accept massive loans from bankers (especially ones that live far away and do not speak your language) that you cannot or will not ever repay. Some call it austerity, I call it 'making good on a bad mistake.' Just don't repeat it. Tell the IMF that any future endeavors should be redirected towards your middle finger. Work hard, rebuild your once great nation, and then hire a guy named Alexander to look into Asian real estate opportunities for you.

Actually no, no I don't. I have no generalised opinion of Greeks. From the start I was talking about Greece, the country. I'm sure there are many honest, hard working Greeks hit hard by this situation and in no way to blame for it. But the fact is, a shitload of money is pumped into that country every year, and yet we are still getting nowhere, we keep ending up in the same place, with the same discussion. So if we are to get nowhere, we can at least get there a lot cheaper. And hell, I may be wrong, maybe this time another truckload of money would solve verything. But my opinion has nothing to do with any sort of prejudice. But please, do keep going. Facts and reason were not stoping anyone here from jumping on the "Breja is a racist" badnwagon, I would hate to spoil your fun now. Like I told Awalterj, I have no intention of partaking in this witchhunt and trying to prove to you that I'm not a witch. I'm sure I weigh as much as a duck anyway.

This has been an enlightning experience to say the least, to see how quick and eager a lot of people are to jump on slander bandwagon. I think my glowing opinion of this community was woefully inacurate. Oh well, live and learn.

25% bigger? Wow, you have exact numbers. Based on what? :)

Some clarifying questions:

- Why didn't Greece "default" (I presume that to mean both missing paying their debts, and leaving the euro zone) in 2009, and decline the bail out by IMF/EU/ECB?

- Why even now, Greece and Syriza still want to remain in eurozone? The latest news today are that a Greek finance minister is threatening to sue ECB for not increasing their support to Greek banks, and in case they do anything to force Greece out of eurozone. (Other eurocountries can't do anything to force Greece out, but ECB could take measures that would make it increasingly impossible for Greece to remain in euro. But I consider even that quite improbable, so most probably Greece stays in euro as long as they want, they will exit only voluntarily).

I personally believe that most of Greeks understand being part of eurozone has been extremely beneficial to them, even if they hadn't taken any cheap debt money.

May be, but it still doesn't create sustainable economic growth, and remain only as long as debt money is pumped into there. This may be a workable short-term solution when the economic problems are seasonal (ie. you merely need to wait out for economy to recover, and pumping money at the bad times let people to cope better with the bad times, but not really when they are structural. In the latter case, they will make matters only worse, increasing the debt even more.

Don't forget that this pension money is currently for the most part taxpayer's money from other EU countries. Shouldn't I demand that my tax money is spent of Finnish pensions, not Greek pensions? Will Greeks at some point pay our pensions? I doubt it, why would they want to do that, even if they could afford? The sick thing is that we are also living on debt currently, so basically we are increasing our debt in order to pay Greek pensions and public sector wages.

(lots of ideological leftist diatribe how rich people are evil removed, as it doesn't really have anything with my question)

No.

IMF and other euro countries basically took debts from the banks for the most part, in order to calm down the situation. At that point, part of the debts were also cut, and Greece also got lower interest rates, longer repayment deals etc. At that point, the new creditors also wanted that Greek would try to fix its economy to a more sustainable level, in hopes that eventually it could take matters on its own hand again, and get more money from the market.

In retrospect, maybe that was too optimistic, partly also because Greece is increasingly fighting against the reforms.

Of course the creditors are hoping to recoup their money back at some point, but it is increasingly looking less and less likely that we can recoup it at least fully, also because Greece doesn't simply want to pay them back. Why would they? Why would anyone want to repay his big debts, if there was a way to weasel out of it? It's all profit, the more you can avoid it.

So should we simply forgive Greece all its debts that we took from the British, German and French banks? Or should we still try to get at least some of it back? What's in it for us, shouldn't we similarly think about our own pensioners and people on social welfare, as Tsipras is thinking for Greeks? I guess the question boils down to this: should our poor pay the price for Greek poor? The debt will not simply vanish from both parties, someone has to pay.

Just to make sure you realize that it is not institutions and corporations (banks) against Greece, there are real people in real countries on the other side now.

I personally agree and hope that at least Finland would have stayed the hell away from the bailout program. I'd like to be like the Brits, Swedes, Norwegians, Swiss, Americans and New Zealanders, who can just look at this from the outside and give their advice from above, like "austerity is baaaaaaad!". After all, it is not their money in it anymore (other than the little through IMF, I guess).

Especially the Brits have been damn fortunate in this whole deal. British banks also had big debts in Greece, but Brits dodged the bullet by eurozone countries willingly taking over those debts. Now the Brits can act as outsiders to the whole mess, while in practice many of their banks were saved with eurozone countries' taxpayers' money.

It might have been a good deal also to Germans and French (compared to the scenario that they would have had to save their national banks themselves), but at least e.g. Germans taxpayers still feel it in their skin, they have the most debt towards Greece at the moment. Unlike the Brits, for instance.

Too bad for countries like Finland that had nothing to do with the mess ("Finnish" banks, the few there are still and haven't been bought Sweden or Denmark, didn't have much debts to Greece), were stupid enough willingly take part into the bailout operation.

Oh well, too late to ruminate anymore for that, now have to think what from now onwards. My first suggestion: no more bailout money to Greece. At all. Don't increase the debt at all, which we won't get back anyway. Then think what to do next, without further bailouts.

Well, actually if a banker lends me one billion euro, he's a moron (and will have to answer to his investors) and it's not my problem. It's called business risk.

It's called a loan agreement, or in more legal terms LOAN CONTRACT. You sign the dotted line, they own your ass until that debt is paid. Want to play ignorant and think you can walk away from the banks? Well, good luck. Sooner or later you'll be walking away from your home... because they will come and take it as collateral.

And even if you could walk away from fiscal responsibility, sooner or later everyone else will stop doing business with you. For better or worse, the entire global financial system is going to have to clean up from the weekend party. The last century's debt-tax-inflation cycle is completely out of control. Better to suffer a small depression or recession now than a total correction and global meltdown later... that's even if it is still possible to avoid. A meltdown might be inevitable at this point. There's only so many times you can try to make zero equal 100% before all the wheels fall off your financial wagon.

Don't jump into conclusions. We'll have to check if you can sink on the water first.
:D

I'm sorry that i've misunderstood you, i didn't read all your posts (missed that where you spoke about Poland fucking up, so yeah...). I usually get overwhelmed when i have to read plenty pages on a topic!
Anyway hope you didn't go THAT mad! :D