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Navagon: If I remember rightly it involves some .cfg file editing to get the job done properly.
It still requires the US version, as highlighted by fellow GOG member Shadowcat's guide: http://shadowcat.freehosting.net/roth_patch.html
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dtgreene: Actually, I don't find this to be an issue with games like Wizardry and Bard's Tale. (In those games, you never have to move and do something else at the same time.)
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InfraSuperman: I don't even mind it in FPS games and such from back in the day. People nowadays seem to lack the versatility to play anything that doesn't conform to some arbitrary standard.
I think in the case of input, it can be frustrating to suddenly be made really aware of the disconnect between you and your character, because you have to think about controls that are usually subconcious like movement and aiming. I agree that some people are just unwilling to adapt to something different, but for some of us WADS + mouse is so natural that trying to do anything else feels like trying to play while hanging upside down. You can get used to it, but it's not comfortable.

I'll admit that I've also been spoiled by the plethora of source ports for Doom-era FPSs. For the most part I can just stay in my comfort zone without having to suck it up and learn to deal with keyboard controls. That's probably something I should fix soon, since there are still a few games I want to play that don't have good ports.
Post edited January 29, 2016 by jefequeso
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Navagon: If I remember rightly it involves some .cfg file editing to get the job done properly.
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Grargar: It still requires the US version, as highlighted by fellow GOG member Shadowcat's guide: http://shadowcat.freehosting.net/roth_patch.html
Well I definitely got those keys sorted out somehow.
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jefequeso: I think in the case of input, it can be frustrating to suddenly be made really aware of the disconnect between you and your character, because you have to think about controls that are usually subconcious like movement and aiming. I agree that some people are just unwilling to adapt to something different, but for some of us WADS + mouse is so natural that trying to do anything else feels like trying to play while hanging upside down. You can get used to it, but it's not comfortable.

I'll admit that I've also been spoiled by the plethora of source ports for Doom-era FPSs. For the most part I can just stay in my comfort zone without having to suck it up and learn to deal with keyboard controls. That's probably something I should fix soon, since there are still a few games I want to play that don't have good ports.
I can see that. I suppose it's somewhat similar to those instances when the Angry Video Game Nerd points out that a game he's reviewing uses "B" instead of "A" for jumping, which seemingly screws with his mind.

Personally, I don't have any major problems of switching between full-keyboard controls for old "2.5D" FPS games and WASD+mouse for later "actual 3D" ones, maybe because those feel like two distinctly different subgenres to me.
Also, mouselook in Doom always feels... wrong to me, as it's always pretty noticeable that games like that weren't designed with it in mind, even in the Build-engine, it was obviously included as a mere afterthought. It doesn't help that those graphics don't respond well to looking up or down.

When comes to playing them with the keyboard, I basically treat it like a large gamepad or something akin to those arcade-sticks. It gives me direct control over the character and I never seem to lose "immersion" over it.
I know some people like to use the sort of mouse controls that were included in Wolfenstein 3D or vanilla Doom, where you actually move with the mouse. Granted, that does give you a better ability to turn and aim, but it always felt a bit off to me. Kind of as if you're controlling the character with a remote.

Granted, some old games may profit from the "modern" standard controls, like Daggerfall, which has fully customizable controls, probably for a reason.

I certainly don't have anything against WASD+mouse, I play lots of games that way, but I feel that relying entirely on such standards (not just when it comes to controls, mind you) results in a loss of flexibility and variety for a lot of games. Well, that and I guess I'm kind of annoyed that nearly every old game is labelled as "clunky", just because it doesn't adhere to modern expectations.
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jefequeso: I think in the case of input, it can be frustrating to suddenly be made really aware of the disconnect between you and your character, because you have to think about controls that are usually subconcious like movement and aiming. I agree that some people are just unwilling to adapt to something different, but for some of us WADS + mouse is so natural that trying to do anything else feels like trying to play while hanging upside down. You can get used to it, but it's not comfortable.

I'll admit that I've also been spoiled by the plethora of source ports for Doom-era FPSs. For the most part I can just stay in my comfort zone without having to suck it up and learn to deal with keyboard controls. That's probably something I should fix soon, since there are still a few games I want to play that don't have good ports.
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InfraSuperman: I can see that. I suppose it's somewhat similar to those instances when the Angry Video Game Nerd points out that a game he's reviewing uses "B" instead of "A" for jumping, which seemingly screws with his mind.

Personally, I don't have any major problems of switching between full-keyboard controls for old "2.5D" FPS games and WASD+mouse for later "actual 3D" ones, maybe because those feel like two distinctly different subgenres to me.
Also, mouselook in Doom always feels... wrong to me, as it's always pretty noticeable that games like that weren't designed with it in mind, even in the Build-engine, it was obviously included as a mere afterthought. It doesn't help that those graphics don't respond well to looking up or down.

When comes to playing them with the keyboard, I basically treat it like a large gamepad or something akin to those arcade-sticks. It gives me direct control over the character and I never seem to lose "immersion" over it.
I know some people like to use the sort of mouse controls that were included in Wolfenstein 3D or vanilla Doom, where you actually move with the mouse. Granted, that does give you a better ability to turn and aim, but it always felt a bit off to me. Kind of as if you're controlling the character with a remote.

Granted, some old games may profit from the "modern" standard controls, like Daggerfall, which has fully customizable controls, probably for a reason.

I certainly don't have anything against WASD+mouse, I play lots of games that way, but I feel that relying entirely on such standards (not just when it comes to controls, mind you) results in a loss of flexibility and variety for a lot of games. Well, that and I guess I'm kind of annoyed that nearly every old game is labelled as "clunky", just because it doesn't adhere to modern expectations.
I actually don't use mouselook in Doom! I prefer it with just x axis aiming. It's really being able to aim with the mouse ands move with wads that's important to me. And yeah, it's not that I think there's any inherent problem with keyboard aiming, I just need to suck it up and get used to it at some point. As I said, I'm spoiled by being able to bind wads + mouse to most any FPS I want to play.

Yeah, it annoys me also that people resort to "clunky" accusations just because something doesn't adhere to modern standards. Like I said before, I think there's a difference between something aging poorly and something just needing a different mindset to be appreciated. I just find that input is one of those things I have a hard time adjusting to. That's also one of the reasons I've remained a PC gamer even when I didn't have a PC that could play new releases. I hate gamepads for FP games and don't want to deal with getting used to them :P
In terms of feeling a disconnect from the character, the movement controls in games like Baldur's Gate do that to me. In those games, you move by clicking where you want to go, and the game's pathfinding takes you there. I find that I feel less in control than in a game like Ultima 1-6, where you control the character directly. (The bad pathfinding in the Infinity Engine games doesn't help here; it wouldn't be as annoying if you didn't have to rely on it for all movement.)
As much as it is debatable, Tank Controls haven't aged well, but there are games like Grim Fandango Remastered in which they even give you an achievement by using this "classic" controls instead of the modern "non relative oriented" ones.

REDVWIN
Post edited January 30, 2016 by REDVWIN
N64. Everything. Early 3D tech has not aged well. Those textures and blocky bits make those 64 games look like hammered dog shit.
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Emob78: N64. Everything. Early 3D tech has not aged well. Those textures and blocky bits make those 64 games look like hammered dog shit.
You know, the better part is, N64 isn't even early 3D. You want Early 3D, go look at some of the Super FX titles like Star Fox or Stunt Race FX.
Warcraft 1. I played it some time in 96, and even then it was tough to play it after playing, say, Warcraft 2 or Red Alert.

Only 4 units max selected, no 1-click move/attack/work. I did enjoy it; you get used to the keyboard shortcuts after some time, but it might be difficult to play it for people used to modern RTSs.
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Post edited January 30, 2016 by Fairfox
I could mention the original Mega Man. There is one little aspect of the game that would be considered unreasonable under modern game design principles.

At the start of the Guts Man stage, there is a section where you have to cross a gap, and you do so by riding platforms on rails. There are, however, parts of the rail where the platform turns sideways, dropping Mega Man (if he happens to be on the platform) to his doom. On a first attempt at that level, a new player is pretty much guaranteed to die as a result of not knowing how the platform works.

A better design would be as follows: Early in the level, introduce such platforms gently. Putting safe ground below the platform, so that falling off the platform doesn't spell doom, will allow the player to learn how the platform works. Then, later in the level (like right after the mid point), *then* you put an obstacle like the one at the start of the original game. You can see this being done later in the Mega Man series, like in MM4's Ring Man stage, for example. There's even an example of this done right in MM9, for that matter.
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snowkatt: and btw i liked your previous avatar better but thats me
Yeah, I think I liked it better too, so I've switched back.
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snowkatt: and btw i liked your previous avatar better but thats me
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bushidoukitsune: Yeah, I think I liked it better too, so I've switched back.
What was the other one from, anyways?
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bushidoukitsune: Yeah, I think I liked it better too, so I've switched back.
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zeogold: What was the other one from, anyways?
It was the character Jared from a really good webcomic, Manly Guys Doing Manly Things. Give it a read sometime!