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Cbob60: I read it, I just don't find it conclusive. The purpose of a grand jury hearing is to determine if there is a possibility of a crime, not render a final verdict. Wilson could have lied.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/seemingly-unorthodox-police-procedures-emerge-in-grand-jury-documents/2014/11/25/48152574-74e0-11e4-bd1b-03009bd3e984_story.html
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SeduceMePlz: I suppose he could have used his service weapon, which he had never before discharged in the line of duty, to gun down a black man on the street without just cause, sure. But without any reliable testimony or compelling evidence, on what basis would you make that assertion? Because he's white, he must be a racist that hates blacks?

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Cbob60: 'Prosecutors, who led the inquiry, regularly grilled witnesses, testing their memories and going to great lengths to discredit some.

But in questioning Wilson, prosecutors were far more gentle and at times seemed to be guiding his answers.'
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SeduceMePlz: Establishing the credibility of witnesses is a crucial part of responsible prosecution. Considering that the physical evidence revealed many of the supposed witnesses were outright lying, this "grilling" of witnesses seems entirely appropriate and necessary.
]

Exactly, and that standard should apply to the defendant, Wilson, above all. The prosecutor in this case comes from a family of cops and has had a pretty cozy relationship with the local department.
Look, I don't know Wilson. Maybe he panicked, maybe he's just a lousy cop, or maybe he's innocent and Michael Brown really was trying to charge him through a hail of bullets. The point is there's enough doubt here to warrant a trial.

Thanks for your reply.
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htown1980: There were multiple reports that interpreted the evidence differently. It's entirely your perogative to ignore those other reports if that is what you want to do. The article you have linked, however, expressly states that the author is dealing with only a small part of the evidence.
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SeduceMePlz: And the grand jury that reviewed all available evidence and testimony? What makes you think that your opinion is somehow more informed than theirs?
I could say that it is because I am a lawyer, but that's not the reason, the real reason is that it is obvious that there was sufficient evidence to support a charge. The prosecution may ultimately not have been successful but it is not the grand jury's job to decide that. The grand jury made a mistake. The prosecution did not do their job. It's fine if you don't understand that. There is a serious lack of accountability in the US police force and this case is, sadly, one of many many examples that have come up this year. It's a real shame that their are so many US citizens who don't have a problem with that, but it's your country, good luck to you.
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htown1980: I could say that it is because I am a lawyer, but that's not the reason, the real reason is that it is obvious that there was sufficient evidence to support a charge. The prosecution may ultimately not have been successful but it is not the grand jury's job to decide that. The grand jury made a mistake. The prosecution did not do their job. It's fine if you don't understand that. There is a serious lack of accountability in the US police force and this case is, sadly, one of many many examples that have come up this year. It's a real shame that their are so many US citizens who don't have a problem with that, but it's your country, good luck to you.
And once again you make dubious claims without evidence or support while ignoring specific questions about those assertions. (Again, what evidence?) It's fine if you can't admit to being mistaken and allowing ideology rather than facts to influence your opinion, but I'm not going to waste any more of my time 'discussing' it with you in that case.
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htown1980: I could say that it is because I am a lawyer, but that's not the reason, the real reason is that it is obvious that there was sufficient evidence to support a charge. The prosecution may ultimately not have been successful but it is not the grand jury's job to decide that. The grand jury made a mistake. The prosecution did not do their job. It's fine if you don't understand that. There is a serious lack of accountability in the US police force and this case is, sadly, one of many many examples that have come up this year. It's a real shame that their are so many US citizens who don't have a problem with that, but it's your country, good luck to you.
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SeduceMePlz: And once again you make dubious claims without evidence or support while ignoring specific questions about those assertions. (Again, what evidence?) It's fine if you can't admit to being mistaken and allowing ideology rather than facts to influence your opinion, but I'm not going to waste any more of my time 'discussing' it with you in that case.
The problem is that, from what I understand, the standard for indictment is probable cause that the accused has committed a crime; affirmative defenses, such as whether the defendant was justified (i.e. they used legally justified self defense or the officer exercised lawful deadly force to stop a fleeing felon who presented a danger to the community) are irrelevant, as they do not disprove the prima facie elements. Probable cause in and of itself is a very low standard, below the 99.9% burden of proof of "beyond a reasonable doubt" (which the prosecution must satisfy at trial) and the 50-50 of "preponderance of the evidence"; it is so low that it has led to the saying that a grand jury can indict a ham sandwich. If an indictment can't be returned, then the evidence either is exceptionally lacking when it comes to showing the prima facie elements of the crime, or the jury simply didn't do their job properly.

Here, there was ample evidence that the officer shot the victim. There is probable cause that the prima facie elements of the crime for murder in the second degree (at the highest, on my reading) and all lower forms of homicide are met, since the actus reus is not apparently in dispute (the cop shot him and killed him), and the mens rea of malice aforethought is likely satisfied due to the cop using deadly force in a manner that he either intended to kill (intent) or substantially knew would result in death of the victim (knowledge); since intent and/or knowledge are likely present by the low standard of probable cause, all lower forms of mens rea (recklessness and criminal negligence) would also be satisfied, which would allow for a grand jury to indict for the lesser offenses of manslaughter and criminal negligence.

The grand jury refusing to indict only makes sense if the grand jury chose to not indict based on the idea that the officer acted in self defense, and therefor should not be punished. However. as I mentioned earlier, affirmative defenses are, as best as I can tell, irrelevant in determining if an indictment should be issued under the standard, as it does not speak to whether a crime was not committed, only whether a crime that has occurred should not be punished under a theory of justification (i.e. defense) or excuse. Whether the defendant was justified is something that a defense attorney would need to prove at trial, usually by a preponderance of the evidence or by clear and convincing evidence. All that is relevant for an indictment is whether there is probable cause that a crime, however justified it might have been, was committed.
Post edited November 30, 2014 by Jonesy89
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Sorry, I may be just too tired or blind, but how is this Gamergate related?
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joriandrake: Sorry, I may be just too tired or blind, but how is this Gamergate related?
I think the drift to the Michael Brown case started with this:

http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2014/11/25/gamergate-meet-ferguson-ferguson-meet-gamergate/
Post edited November 30, 2014 by MaGo72
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Jonesy89: snip
Good post, but slightly overstated.

Defense is not required to prove innocence, merely to establish reasonable doubt.

Not choosing to indict does not imply self defense, or exhoneration, it may merely imply conviction was not likely based on evidence presented.

Finally, indictment via prosecution selection of favorable evidence only (cherry picking) may be the common practice, but let's not conflate that with saying it is just or good.

Which come to think of it, connects to the topic of how lack of objectivity is ethically suspect.
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Jonesy89: snip
Thank you for an interesting reply: It did cause me to think more about those aspects of the process. It's my weekend, so I'll keep this brief:

I don't see how the event of the shooting itself would constitute sufficient basis for a criminal charge: Not all shootings result in criminal charges, and cases of self-defense do not always go to trial. Also, I have the impression that probable cause does actually require evidence above mere suspicion, and that affirmative defenses are actually considered by police and prosecutors before making arrests or filing criminal charges. With this case, that discretion was actually passed to the grand jury, resulting in a process actually more fair than the norm (as opposed to if the prosecutor himself had chosen not to file criminal charges, which many seem to forget is a possibilty).

This article and the comments about it are interesting in this regard:

http://nccriminallaw.sog.unc.edu/ferguson-and-the-prosecutors-approach-to-the-grand-jury/
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MaGo72: Guys, we folks will never know what happenend and the "justice" I saw it with the guy sellling bootleg cigarettes, strangled by a cop unarmed. I saw it, a guy with a toy gun in a super market shot on sight, I saw it with a 12 year old shot down in a park, a guy entering a staircase unarmed with his girlfriend, an old man who would not let the cops in, shot. THIS is just wrong.
and this:

http://atlanta.cbslocal.com/2014/02/19/attorney-teen-shot-killed-by-police-was-holding-wii-video-game-controller/

http://www.kotaku.com.au/2014/02/kid-shot-dead-by-cops-witnesses-say-he-was-holding-wii-remote/

the thing about this one is that you are not even safe in your own house - being a teenager.

rumours has it the cop has a facebook page, and the content on it doesn't show her in a good light (as in unstable). but it was quickly deleted and she got away scot free.
http://youtu.be/75OVrki0RzM

Wow. Just wow.
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jefequeso: http://youtu.be/75OVrki0RzM

Wow. Just wow.
Wasn't he the one who called you out on Twitter? :)
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jefequeso: http://youtu.be/75OVrki0RzM

Wow. Just wow.
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catpower1980: Wasn't he the one who called you out on Twitter? :)
Wait, when?

EDIT: oh lord, I just realized you're absolutely right. That's really hilarious, that he accused me of having a history of making bad decisions :D
Post edited December 01, 2014 by jefequeso
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catpower1980: Wasn't he the one who called you out on Twitter? :)
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jefequeso: Wait, when?

EDIT: oh lord, I just realized you're absolutely right. That's really hilarious, that he accused me of having a history of making bad decisions :D
Yep, the Internet never forgets :o)
https://twitter.com/davidsgallant/status/527881969917763584
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Seems like typical anti-GG game marketing. Help help I'm being oppressed! Send me money for my cheap ass game! Or help help, I'm on your side! Send me money for my dumb little game because I will make Gamergaters pay!

Whatever happened to making a good game and having people buy it on it's own merits?

There are the talented artists of the world and then there are the Ed Wood's who have to create cheap publicity stunts to sell their products...sorta reminds me of the upcoming game Hatred...
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RWarehall: Seems like typical anti-GG game marketing. Help help I'm being oppressed! Send me money for my cheap ass game! Or help help, I'm on your side! Send me money for my dumb little game because I will make Gamergaters pay!

Whatever happened to making a good game and having people buy it on it's own merits?

There are the talented artists of the world and then there are the Ed Wood's who have to create cheap publicity stunts to sell their products...sorta reminds me of the upcoming game Hatred...
Oh come on, today on the so-called "Cyber Monday", he just raised the price of his game up to 200$ on itch.io :
http://davidsgallant.itch.io/i-get-this-call-every-day

Copy/paste before it's deleted from the page:
EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY UNTIL THE END OF CYBER MONDAY, THIS PIECE OF DIGITAL ENTERTAINMENT WILL INCUR A 100x PRICE INCREASE TO ENCOURAGE PARTICIPATION IN INTERNATIONAL BUY NOTHING DAY.

COMPLIANCE IN CAPITALISM WILL BE MET WITH FINANCIAL DISINCENTIVE.

EDIT: the guy was already a social nutcase and drama queen last year (ROFL at the picture):
http://indiegames.com/2013/08/why_i_get_this_call_every_day_.html
______________________________________________________________________________________

On a more serious matter, some retards are still harassing Brianna Wu because her dog is dying, stupdity has no bounds from either sides:
https://twitter.com/Spacekatgal/status/539459468829143040
https://twitter.com/MisterForks/status/539302650563809280
Post edited December 01, 2014 by catpower1980