It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
low rated
avatar
LeonardoCornejo: snip
avatar
Brasas: Since you asked... maybe this will give you some food for thought.

My opinion is your opinion is somewhat elitist. :) Only your elite is defined by the honor of fun and passion in playing. Fun and passion being left implicitly defined mainly via exclusion of economic motives / influences. Some people are passionate about winning and find making lots of money fun you know?

Also, I suspect you are slightly paranoid - by which I mean some of your fears / aversions are not actually grounded in reality. For example, FIFA corruption is at organizing layers. The players and the matches are mostly corruption free.

You therefore are conflating two kinds of corruption, although they are both economic. The first is the actual corruption, of bribes and throwing games, maybe even doping. Other than FIFA you don't really offer examples. they exist of course, but it's interesting you focus more on the other corruption.

The second is a kind of corruption of the soul, caused as you point out, by economic interests interfering with other interests (for you honor, fun, passion). This leads to valuing victory over just playing, to doping potentially, certainly to most of what you describe.

The thing with this second one and why it is elitist. For one, the conception of sportmanship that you admire is fairly old. The Olympic games are supposed to be paragons of such. The common distinction between professional and amateur sports also touches on similar distinctions - do you get paid or not?

Fundamentally, instead of using economic facts to differentiate sport categories, you would rather use a sort of ideological purity test. It's like instead of skill and results (measured by victories very directly) you would prefer to look at a kind of inherent marxist value - how much effort (defined in that passion and fun and honor you like) is someone bringing to the table? Instead of professional paid sportsmen you would likely hold children as the purer examples of uncorrupted play. See what I did there? Uncorrupted PLAY. Sport is a form of playing, more competitive and skill based. Professional sport adds economic rewards. Neither the money, nor the competitiveness, nor the skill is necessarily corrupting. Unless your own ethical system so defines it.

Now, this is not my opinion on e-sports, it was rather my opinion on the way you framed the topic.

I think what I would like to tell you is: you can still find the kind of playing you want. You just need to choose who you play with more carefully. All the people playing for different reasons can't ruin anything you do. Focus on what is under your control.
My primary concern is that it could end up with cheating scandals, bribed players, rigged matches, you know, like with the FIFA. I am well aware you can get paid for something you like, but when I hear someone saying "I don't like [Name of the game], I just play it for the money". Well, that is as depressing as a dead end job.
avatar
Brasas: Since you asked... maybe this will give you some food for thought.

My opinion is your opinion is somewhat elitist. :) Only your elite is defined by the honor of fun and passion in playing. Fun and passion being left implicitly defined mainly via exclusion of economic motives / influences. Some people are passionate about winning and find making lots of money fun you know?

Also, I suspect you are slightly paranoid - by which I mean some of your fears / aversions are not actually grounded in reality. For example, FIFA corruption is at organizing layers. The players and the matches are mostly corruption free.

You therefore are conflating two kinds of corruption, although they are both economic. The first is the actual corruption, of bribes and throwing games, maybe even doping. Other than FIFA you don't really offer examples. they exist of course, but it's interesting you focus more on the other corruption.

The second is a kind of corruption of the soul, caused as you point out, by economic interests interfering with other interests (for you honor, fun, passion). This leads to valuing victory over just playing, to doping potentially, certainly to most of what you describe.

The thing with this second one and why it is elitist. For one, the conception of sportmanship that you admire is fairly old. The Olympic games are supposed to be paragons of such. The common distinction between professional and amateur sports also touches on similar distinctions - do you get paid or not?

Fundamentally, instead of using economic facts to differentiate sport categories, you would rather use a sort of ideological purity test. It's like instead of skill and results (measured by victories very directly) you would prefer to look at a kind of inherent marxist value - how much effort (defined in that passion and fun and honor you like) is someone bringing to the table? Instead of professional paid sportsmen you would likely hold children as the purer examples of uncorrupted play. See what I did there? Uncorrupted PLAY. Sport is a form of playing, more competitive and skill based. Professional sport adds economic rewards. Neither the money, nor the competitiveness, nor the skill is necessarily corrupting. Unless your own ethical system so defines it.

Now, this is not my opinion on e-sports, it was rather my opinion on the way you framed the topic.

I think what I would like to tell you is: you can still find the kind of playing you want. You just need to choose who you play with more carefully. All the people playing for different reasons can't ruin anything you do. Focus on what is under your control.
avatar
LeonardoCornejo: My primary concern is that it could end up with cheating scandals, bribed players, rigged matches, you know, like with the FIFA. I am well aware you can get paid for something you like, but when I hear someone saying "I don't like [Name of the game], I just play it for the money". Well, that is as depressing as a dead end job.
Yeah, IMHO playing games "just" for the money is "doing it wrong"

E-sports: I don't really follow it
avatar
LeonardoCornejo: snip
I guess you are younger than me. :) If you ask professionals around you, you will quickly realize majorities are doing their jobs for the money above everything else. Professional sports are professional, hence no exception. I guess it is depressing. But from where I stand, it's rather just life you know?

That said, sports are somewhat unique in that most of the people playing them, even professionally, actually have passion for the practice and skills involved.

As to actual corruption. It's a crime and should be prosecuted criminally. AFAIK there are not any significant examples in e-sports yet?
low rated
avatar
LeonardoCornejo: snip
avatar
Brasas: I guess you are younger than me. :) If you ask professionals around you, you will quickly realize majorities are doing their jobs for the money above everything else. Professional sports are professional, hence no exception. I guess it is depressing. But from where I stand, it's rather just life you know?

That said, sports are somewhat unique in that most of the people playing them, even professionally, actually have passion for the practice and skills involved.

As to actual corruption. It's a crime and should be prosecuted criminally. AFAIK there are not any significant examples in e-sports yet?
I hope there never will be and my concern turns out to be baseless. I don't want a Doritos Pope 2.0 or worse.
avatar
Brasas: As to actual corruption. It's a crime and should be prosecuted criminally. AFAIK there are not any significant examples in e-sports yet?
I can swear some players have been banned for targeting script use. So it does happen even in e-sports.
avatar
RWarehall: I can swear some players have been banned for targeting script use. So it does happen even in e-sports.
I see that kind of cheating as more similar to doping.
avatar
RWarehall: I can swear some players have been banned for targeting script use. So it does happen even in e-sports.
avatar
Brasas: I see that kind of cheating as more similar to doping.
The bigger/better organized the event the less likely this is to happen, since I don't think you're allowed to use your own PC in competitions.
low rated
avatar
WBGhiro: And the UK wants to "review" "sexism" too. https://archive.is/gjhiz

The best part of the article is the comment on the screenshot "Two women, dressed as characters from the Streetfighter videogame play the game in Cologne, Germany August 5, 2015. Sexism is a pressing issue in the games world. " Oh yeah, I'm sure it was some patriarchy issued high grade sexism that forced those poor women to have fun playing games while cosplaying.
avatar
Shadowstalker16: Faith in humanity...............
Just think about how many trees are going to have to be cut down to print out paper for all those government ratings reports. If it wasn't for sexism, we might well have saved another 100 acres of Amazon rain forest.
low rated
avatar
Emob78: Just think about how many trees are going to have to be cut down to print out paper for all those government ratings reports. If it wasn't for sexism, we might well have saved another 100 acres of Amazon rain forest.
I'd hope the government ratings would use paper that's a tad bit more local than the Amazon like maybe from North America.
avatar
LeonardoCornejo: Now, after all this time I have grown fond of many of you and find the opinions of most of you relevant or at least of my interest so I would like to know your opinion on something (I am going to make this same question in another forum).

What is your opinion on e-sports?

If you ask me I find the whole idea unsettling because I have seen the nest of corruption professional sports became. You know, the amount of corruption in the FIFA world cup for example.

I also feel revolted by the use of sponsors. I have no problem with sports brands providing resources for players and therefore putting their names on the shirt tags and things like that, but once the brand is more notable than the team's colors or symbol then something is wrong. And you can see that in many sports teams nowadays with a brand logo in each shoulder and on both front and back of the shirt obscuring the team logo and sometimes even the player number. I would not like to see that in gaming anymore.

And the worst part is something my friend who is a sports fan hates the most. The lack of fun, love and passion. Once you stop playing because you enjoy it and you only play to win and be rich and famous then there is no point in playing. And that is something you can see more and more in e-sports players. Some Asian dude who plays a MOBA and does not even like the game, does not know the lore, and does not care about all the fun aspects of the game, only winning the championship and earning bucks.

I would rather have no pay for enjoying a game than getting paid for playing a game I don't care about. It also happens in TCGs such as Magic: The Gathering and Yu-Gi-Oh!, and I also hate it there since I play those games, but I believe gaming can still be saved from that "No fun, only victory matters, template based gameplay" mindset that infected TCGs, while TCGs, or at least MTG can't be saved from that (Thank you Star City Games, you corrupted sponsor).

For that reason I hate the concept of e-sports and "professional gamers" and actually feel there is no honor in gaming championships if you don't have fun.

I would like to hear your opinion on that.
We don't stop breathing even the air is polluted.

We don't stop eating even most of our food is grown with insecticide, hormones and chemicals.

Just focus on matches you like.

Enough depressing things, lets see a commercial advertisement that will never happen in the west.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZgmj5ay5Bk
Post edited June 13, 2016 by Gnostic
avatar
LeonardoCornejo: ...
What is your opinion on e-sports?
...
A bit late to the party, but here is my opinion:
Not concerned at all, because I see nothing new in it, no "new threat" for "gaming culture".

Once (or if even) the gaming lost the stigma of "pathological" past-time, pro-gaming will raise to the equal position with commercionalized sport, because all other prerequisites are already fulfilled:
- Videogaming is competitive activity - even single-player games are opened to competitive challenges: highest score, fastest speedrun - you name it.
- Gaming has always had potential to be good spectacle. This goes back to pre-videogame times - the whole pub watching local pinball or billiard champ.
- Gaming was part of entertainment business (in broader sense of the world) from the very beginning.

So you are right, the pro-level gaming will become the same as pro-level in any other sport, including politicking, bribery, shady deals, annoying sponsors etc. But why it should "kill" gaming on lower levels?

The FIFA scandal didn't really affect the passion and fun of twelve-years old chasing the ball in the backyard or bitter local rivalry between neighboring villages. They are not better nor worse than before.
Actually, there is little love or fun and WAY too much passion in the competitive videogaming on the lowest level now. Entering open MOBA server is not for gamers with weak stomach: lots of dudes who does not like the game, the lore or other fun aspects, except of chance of being jerks to the others. If anything, code of conduct between professional athletes is better.
Those StopHavingFunGuys are way too common already.
And the risk that professional matches will be too optimized to be fun to watch can be usually countered by raising difficulty or changing rules. Besides, some immensely popular sports ARE extremely repetitive - for once, I still don't get the American love for baseball. But since it obviously works for them, I am not complaining.
low rated
So, um, Mattel is tainted, deeply tainted.

https://youtu.be/kPHHROn2rqA
avatar
LeonardoCornejo: So, um, Mattel is tainted, deeply tainted.

https://youtu.be/kPHHROn2rqA
Get to 'em while they're young.
Professional Championship sports, just like any championship sport, is a job. People may or may not have fun doing their job, but ultimately the point of a job is to make money. MLB FIFA NFL NBA et. al. players and coaches and managers etc don't play to have fun. They play to make money. Whatever fun they're having is beside the point.

So just like any job there are fair ways and crooked ways to make money. Cheating is wrong and should be discouraged, but there is nothing inherently wrong with sponsorship in sports. Standards ensure that everyone's on a level playing field anyway so long as nobody's cheating and only player skill and team management makes a difference. There is nothing inherently corrupting about sponsorship in sports. At best it's good for everybody (players, consumers, sponsors).

I see no reason why e-sports shouldn't be a thing. It's success will ultimately be decided the same way any business venture is- by the extent of consumer interest.

There should be nothing to prevent people from enjoying video games on their own time, regardless of how e-sports is run. FIFA may be a hotbed of rampant corruption, but nothing stops me from grabbing a ball and kicking it around with a few friends.
Post edited June 19, 2016 by eVinceW21
avatar
Regals: From what I have gathered from this forum it is nothing but filled full of cucks and sjws...

The most popular person here on the forum is TinyE also known as Eram over on the steam forums...
Eram the most SJW infected moderator on steam.

I mean a quick google search shows the history of the SJW back before the "SJW" movement..
That is him in his home of Hawaii , Kaneohe...

Is that really the jest of these forums...
Just another SJW cesspool?
Country to what you believe, most of the people who dislike SJW in this thread is not easily railed and and rage because someone says someone is SJW.

In fact most of the people here dislike SJW because we are lied too often like the wage gap, men are more privilege, objectifying an virtual character is bad, video games caused violence etc etc.

As a side effect of being lied too often we need more substantial proof before we believe you.