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Kurina: I feel fairly confident that video games were targeted by Sarkeesian because it was an easy group to attack.
*facepalm*

Anita Sarkeesian didn't attack anything or any one. All she did was not put out a totally positive shill review. Instead, she focused on critiquing games from a certain perspective. This is a standard thing to do in reviewing. That some gamers then decided to prove all the nasty stereotypes true is enormously embarrassing for gamers everywhere.

The stuff Sarkeesian says is nothing compared to what you hear in other entertainment fields. Somehow readers and moviegoers manage to all get along despite disagreeing violently over which books/movies are the best, or even what constitutes a book/movie!

Are we all so used to fluff-piece paid-for reviews that we can't tolerate any actual critique?
Post edited April 11, 2016 by Gilozard
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Kurina: I feel fairly confident that video games were targeted by Sarkeesian because it was an easy group to attack.
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Gilozard: *facepalm*

Anita Sarkeesian didn't attack anything or any one. All she did was not put out a totally positive shill review. Instead, she focused on critiquing games from a certain perspective. This is a standard thing to do in reviewing. That some gamers then decided to prove all the nasty stereotypes true is enormously embarrassing for gamers everywhere.

The stuff Sarkeesian says is nothing compared to what you hear in other entertainment fields. Somehow readers and moviegoers manage to all get along despite disagreeing violently over which books/movies are the best, or even what constitutes a book/movie!

Are we all so used to fluff-piece paid-for reviews that we can't tolerate any actual critique?
Are you so used to cherry picked out of context examples shown as proof of intention from the devs that they want their customers to hate women? You make a claim, you have to support it with proof.
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Kurina: I feel fairly confident that video games were targeted by Sarkeesian because it was an easy group to attack.
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Gilozard: *facepalm*

Anita Sarkeesian didn't attack anything or any one. All she did was not put out a totally positive shill review. Instead, she focused on critiquing games from a certain perspective. This is a standard thing to do in reviewing. That some gamers then decided to prove all the nasty stereotypes true is enormously embarrassing for gamers everywhere.

The stuff Sarkeesian says is nothing compared to what you hear in other entertainment fields. Somehow readers and moviegoers manage to all get along despite disagreeing violently over which books/movies are the best, or even what constitutes a book/movie!

Are we all so used to fluff-piece paid-for reviews that we can't tolerate any actual critique?
IMHO from a perspective that doesn't understand the medium (not just games, shows, songs or construction sets)

Sure, like it's not an issue to get a "perverse pleasure" from dragging a needlessly dead body around

"Actual critique" & "Anita Sarkeesian" IMHO don't fit together. Sorry, I've seen to many of her videos
Post edited April 11, 2016 by Rusty_Gunn
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Gilozard: Anita Sarkeesian didn't attack anything or any one. All she did was not put out a totally positive shill review.
...
Are we all so used to fluff-piece paid-for reviews that we can't tolerate any actual critique?
Have you been paying attention to her videos? While at times she may hit upon a valid point, many of her arguments are based on assumptions and are willfully deceptive. One of my favorite examples that I mentioned recently is her video on women as background decoration. In regards to how women are treated as disposable objects, she claims, "Their status as disposable objects is reinforced by the fact that in most games discarded bodies will simply vanish into thin air a short time after being killed."

She does not take the time to acknowledge that games, especially older ones, often have memory limitations and cannot support a large pile of dead bodies on the floor. She also does not seem to mention that in her example clip, Godfather II, men also disappear after being killed. She makes the assumption that men enjoy and are meant to derive perverse pleasure from desecrating female bodies and that players often cannot even help themselves from partaking in such acts.

Personally, I would consider this an attack on gaming. None of this has any basis in reality. She provides no sources to back up her assumption that men are compelled to kill virtual women and derive perverse pleasure from it. She also misrepresents how the game is designed by claiming a feature meant to free resources for better performance is something more sinister and a result of misogynistic attitudes. She appears to be doing everything possible to paint the industry and gamers as negatively as possible.

I welcome actual critique, but it certainly will not be found from Sarkeesian and friends.

Edit: Oops, looking back up I see that Rusty gave a similar example. Sorry for being repetitive x.x

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Vainamoinen: The pushback against Anita Sarkeesian could not possibly have come any 'sooner'. It has started when her Kickstarter went online, i.e. a year before an argument was even voiced.
She was critiquing video games before her Kickstarter came into existence, although to be fair they were lower on her priority list compared to film and television. She previously had a video up regarding Bayonetta as far back as 2010 but it was removed by her once others pointed out she never played the game and referred to Bayonetta as a single mother. She also has a 2010 "Too Many Dicks" montage video about games. Thus, during the campaign, it was fairly easy to see how she would be approaching the medium before she released her first KS video.
Post edited April 11, 2016 by Kurina
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Vainamoinen: snip
First... I am never sure what intersectional means. I see the contexts it is applied in, but I just take it literally as meaning some larger thing where smaller things overlap as in a Venn diagram. Hence I'm sure whatever meaning you expect it to carry is not arriving, and I am left wonderign if I should ask, or carry on... because it does not really seem to matter? I think I understand your broader point...

So, what you posted to Kurina is true about me to a large extent: I do not consider the political implications of entertainment media important. Note I say the political is relatively un - important, not that it's absolutely lacking... But I digress...

The values I see as important in participating of GOG have to do with different aspects of the hobby. My interest in the GG phenomena is mainly as an anti anti GG so to speak - by which I mean my defnition of anti GG = SJW, not the anti harassment ideal / propaganda that anti GG images itself as. And the issues I see in gaming journalism are echoes of much more serious issues in journalism more broadly.

In that sense, I suspect limiting myself to SJW and their influences on games / movies / books (journalism or not) is still too limiting. The areas I see SJW activism doing most damage to society are at the roots of cultural products, not in the branches of cultural media themselves: I mean stuff like education / indoctrination. And more directly political topics involving totalitarian impulses... but again, I digress.

That said, I will try to find examples in the areas you suggest as a courtesy (it should also help lower the stakes) and I suggest we move to PM - if nothing else because I selfishly would rather we have a long polite dialogue than see you become eventually aggravated by what I expect will be the usual pile on you suffer - regardless of how tactful you are, and sometimes you are not so much...

So, on books/movies/games, A few points and you can reply here or via PM as I suggest as you wish.

1 - what should I understand from your dropping the boardgame related topics? No interest? No knowledge? Agreement they showcase unwarranted activism?
2 - on the Brad Wardell topic, what do you mean about him not getting your vote? What I thought we were discussing was how and if the SJW driven "engagement" with Wardell was merited by the actual facts of the sexual harassment lawsuit. If you need me to detail what I mean by that I have no issue offering clarification. I find your mention of express firing curious for example, because if we are thinking of the same circunstances the employee at issue quit, without even giving notice, and allegedly destroying marketing assets on the way out - at least that's my recollection.
3 - inspired by something idle ;) I can suggest two more topics: the critical reception to Dragon's Dogma and to the Division and how they are driven by SJ perspectives.

Your move.

PS: how appropriately ludic huh? :)
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Kurina: In regards to how women are treated as disposable objects, she claims, "Their status as disposable objects is reinforced by the fact that in most games discarded bodies will simply vanish into thin air a short time after being killed."

She does not take the time to acknowledge that games, especially older ones, often have memory limitations and cannot support a large pile of dead bodies on the floor. She also does not seem to mention that in her example clip, Godfather II, men also disappear after being killed.
Indeed. Even fairly recent 2012 games do this and you can often change the game engine's behavior to see the effect more clearly. Example for Dishonored (Unreal Engine 3):-

Edit DishonoredAI.ini, and change m_CorpseAbsoluteMaximumCount=10 to 100 and m_CorpseIdealMaximumCount=5 to 50 to eliminate the "disappearing body" effect (which as you say increases memory requirements). Alternatively, reduce the figures to 1 or 0 to have all corpses vanish instantly (considered a cheat). One example of many.

I dare-say half the people rushing to the tabloids complaining about many frivolous 'OMG this is women hate' "examples" she takes wildly out of context even play games, let alone are genuinely interested in understanding how game engines work. Or even defusing tensions. They have their easy labelled enemy, attacking that label serves as excellent "clickbait", that in turn increases interest in $20,000 per time public speaking fees and as long as that 'easy money' gravy-train continues, that's what they'll keep playing on, facts be damned...
Post edited April 11, 2016 by AB2012
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Vainamoinen: Not for Beamdog, apparently. :|

But the call isn't to make Vox Day shut up. The call is to not grant him the immense privilege and power of speaking for a supposed consumer army united against what is, in essence, a nazist enemy concept.
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TVs_Frank: I love how you guys handle the ONE person here willing to talk to you. You downvote him because his views are different from your own, extolling your free speech values while trying to silence him through bullying him via the voting system. I guess that explains all the downvotes for Siege of Dragonspear and any positive reviews for it. The only free speech that matters is your own, right?

Don't worry, I know you'll downvote this too and come up with one of your usual bullshit reasons for why I, or anyone else who does agree with you, am wrong.

Sorry for violating your "safe space." Fucking hypocrites.
It is not a safe space. W downvote things as someone frowns its face in disgust. We still reply and bring a valid objection.

And that is something I have pointed out before. I noticed some of my posts, specially those in which I pointed certain personal interests or made clear that certain fandoms mentioned were wrongfully seen as on the SJW side, have been downvoted into oblivion, and I do not object that. I just requested that whoever downvoted me made sure to reply explaining why it disagrees with me or check if someone else did. Otherwise the downvote is invalid.
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Vainamoinen: Not for Beamdog, apparently. :|

But the call isn't to make Vox Day shut up. The call is to not grant him the immense privilege and power of speaking for a supposed consumer army united against what is, in essence, a nazist enemy concept.
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TVs_Frank: I love how you guys handle the ONE person here willing to talk to you. You downvote him because his views are different from your own, extolling your free speech values while trying to silence him through bullying him via the voting system. I guess that explains all the downvotes for Siege of Dragonspear and any positive reviews for it. The only free speech that matters is your own, right?

Don't worry, I know you'll downvote this too and come up with one of your usual bullshit reasons for why I, or anyone else who does agree with you, am wrong.

Sorry for violating your "safe space." Fucking hypocrites.
An American who doesn't understand how free speech works? This is unheard of.
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TVs_Frank: I love how you guys handle the ONE person here willing to talk to you. You downvote him because his views are different from your own, extolling your free speech values while trying to silence him through bullying him via the voting system. I guess that explains all the downvotes for Siege of Dragonspear and any positive reviews for it. The only free speech that matters is your own, right?

Don't worry, I know you'll downvote this too and come up with one of your usual bullshit reasons for why I, or anyone else who does agree with you, am wrong.

Sorry for violating your "safe space." Fucking hypocrites.
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Hammer49: An American who doesn't understand how free speech works? This is unheard of.
Yale students sign 'petition'

Hangs head in shame for the dumbness of 'Mericans
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Hammer49: An American who doesn't understand how free speech works? This is unheard of.
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Rusty_Gunn: Yale students sign 'petition'

Hangs head in shame for the dumbness of 'Mericans
It's sad to see. The US is the last bastion of free speech, but so many of its citizens would see that fundamental liberty revoked in order to spare their feelings.
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Rusty_Gunn: Yale students sign 'petition'

Hangs head in shame for the dumbness of 'Mericans
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Hammer49: It's sad to see. The US is the last bastion of free speech, but so many of its citizens would see that fundamental liberty revoked in order to spare their feelings.
agreed, It makes it tempting to say " You don't want freedom of speech? Then kindly shut up!" to these Anti-1st amendmenters
Post edited April 12, 2016 by Rusty_Gunn
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Kurina: If you take the time to read my post again I did not compare Jack Thompson to the current situation. I was merely speculating that people did not push back sooner against Sarkeesian because they perceived her to be of little threat, the same as Jack Thompson who also accomplished very little. Obviously that did not turn out to be the case. I was by no means comparing actions or ideologies of the two individuals though, just their perceived presence by the gaming community.
[...] Sorry I cannot take such people seriously, especially those who focus so much of their attention complaining about life's luxuries (social media & video games) while real suffering continues elsewhere.
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Vainamoinen: The pushback against Anita Sarkeesian could not possibly have come any 'sooner'. It has started when her Kickstarter went online, i.e. a year before an argument was even voiced. Anita Sarkeesian is part of the gaming community, so this really is an internal struggle in games culture, as much as some people attempt ideological ousting. Definitely not the entire gaming community pushes back against Anita Sarkeesian, she is welcomed by many (deemed 'corrupt' and 'SJW'); and vocal prominent critics of Sarkeesian's work show the tendency to expressly not belong to the gaming community, i.e. constitute actual outside forces.

Thompson, forgive me that I myself compare and contrast now, can not understand how express members of geek/game culture are able to criticise details about the industry and the narrative media that they LOVE. Consequently, he is not able to understand Anita Sarkeesian:

If you are fighting with an industry, you don’t accept their awards and try to be some sort of heroine to that industry. Pathetic, really. She’s not a warrior on the issue.
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Vainamoinen: Mr. Jack Thompson's assessment here is correct: Sarkeesian is not a 'warrior' like himself who "fights against" the industry (or the consumers of its products even). But these are the only paradigms he is able to think in. It would be great to have a debate outside of them.

Your focus on 'real suffering' is certainly laudable, but if you don't attribute any importance on "first world problems", i.e. interactive entertainment media, you're not just in the wrong thread but also in the wrong forum. :|

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Brasas: Even if they are mostly outside of gaming? I'm not super keen to derail and fatigue us.
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Vainamoinen: I'm all for considering intersectional issues, as you well know, but this would indeed take us too far. I'll gladly extend the scope to non interactive fiction if that helps any. "How the SJW ruin my games/books/movies" could be the focus if you like.

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Brasas: Some older stuff I recall was the brouhaha against Brad Wardell,
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Vainamoinen: The guy who set gamergate's victory conditions to be literal control of the press according to his unspecified absolute definition of "neutral", and with express firing of unwanted personel. I remember him all too well. Sorry Brasas, that guy doesn't get my vote. Then again, I also didn't urinate in GOG's servers when they started having his games over, I'll say. :|

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Brasas: The Kerzner lady, Diana?
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Vainamoinen: I've watched some stuff of Kerzner that was borderline reasonable, though I think it was quite a different topic. She still bases her criticism of Sarkeesian on deeply wilful misinterpretation, in my opinion (off the top of my head, I remember how Sarkeesian's "Listen to women" somehow even translates to "never believe men" for her, serving as the basis for an entire article).

By the way, "GG" is a TV series with six excellent and one abysmal Season, one that gets a netflix revival this year. I'm always having a bit of trouble understanding those letters as an abbreviation for 'gamergate'. :)
I am sorry but what you say is a blatant LIE the same way Sarkesian lies, she doesnt love games. She never does, actually is very easy to read how disgusting is game culture for her, and how much she pretend to like the games that are supposed to be in her "line", if tomorrow all games turn out to be "inclusive or feminist" she would find something wrong on them to continue to fill her pocket.
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TVs_Frank: I love how you guys handle the ONE person here willing to talk to you. You downvote him because his views are different from your own, extolling your free speech values while trying to silence him through bullying him via the voting system. I guess that explains all the downvotes for Siege of Dragonspear and any positive reviews for it. The only free speech that matters is your own, right?

Don't worry, I know you'll downvote this too and come up with one of your usual bullshit reasons for why I, or anyone else who does agree with you, am wrong.

Sorry for violating your "safe space." Fucking hypocrites.
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Hammer49: An American who doesn't understand how free speech works? This is unheard of.
You'd be surprised. There's a great many Americans that think the Bill of Rights is what Cosby says to you before he drops a mickey in your drink.

*yes, that's my joke. You can use it if you want, but please give me some credit for coming up with it*
Quick post since exams are coming and I don't have time to post anything big : https://twitter.com/netscape9/status/719756681962332160

TL;DR ghazi is reinstating a moderator who doxxed a guy. Evidence inside.
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Matewis: How if I may ask? I would hope that STEM is less susceptible to such nonsense, but I don't really follow these things. I do know of that absolutely reprehensible episode where that Rosetta mission scientist was made to apologize for his t-shirt.
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LeonardoCornejo: You named an example of that. Other examples would be for example Richard Dawkins being rejected from many communities over twitter comments, the fat acceptance movement trying to convince the world that being excessively overweight is not a health risk, trying to convince the world that gender roles have no connection with hormones, biology, and sexual dimorphism, firing STEM professors, teachers, and doctors for saying something un PC, trying to apply "intersectionality" to STEM fields, trying to convince the world that the concept of transgender is not all in their heads but a physical reality, and so on.

Basically trying to use STEM to turn their fake reality into the real world by convincing people it is that way and backing it with misused data.
Do you perhaps links for that? I'd be very curious to look at an example. What I've seen/heard happening on some US campuses is horrifying so I wouldn't be surprised if there are a couple of examples. This whole safe space debacle is crazy : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K92rOsjyLBs <- pretty much the extent of what I've heard.

Luckily I'm not aware of such nonsense going on over here on our campuses. Well, not the same kind of nonsense anyway. We've had some widespread riots, fisticuffs and burnings (buildings, books and art) but under other banners : Rhodes must fall; Insourcing/Outsourcing/Language policy (against afrikaans)
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Kurina: As for science itself, one university created specifically a feminist biology class. Another peer-reviewed article was released suggesting syllabi be made to sound less competitive and more friendly so as not to scare women away. There have also been some studies released such as one on glaciers and feminism where they suggest to create a "feminist glaciology framework" and discuss alternative representations of glaciers. Apparently, the field has been dominated too long by men and masculinity and it is time to challenge their work. It seems men and women don't look at giant mounds of ice the same way.
That's horrifying :-|
Do you perhaps have some info on that first article - title&authors or perhaps a link?
Post edited April 13, 2016 by Matewis