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just saw something recently claiming that charity fundraising = harassing women... wtf ??? more precisely giving money to a charity funraising aimed toward helping 3RD WORLD women IS harassement of rich countries women...

i dont even want to waste my time trying to unravel the twisted logic behind this bullshit at all, i'm sick and done with it already, damnit...

stop the planet please so i can get off, thanks...

(because of course lack of healthcare, food, education or anything is such minor problem compared to "real problems women are facing everyday in rich countries"... after all, some said that only women were worthy of claiming PTSD issues and that soldiers veterans - such damn crybabies ? - should not dare to claim they suffer from that too, given how mild their problems were compared to women's here..? Battlefield is camp scout holiday compared to harsh women lives... ok i got the point...)
Post edited April 10, 2016 by Djaron
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LeonardoCornejo: We must make the world listen, because right now nobody has said "It's enough" with the strength to make SJWs or whatever you want to call them rush back into their pseudo intellectual nests to hide. They have damaged nearly every industry and academic sector they could. Right now most social sciences border the field of pseudo science because of them, and they try to expand their influence to STEM.

I am sort of the one who gives heated speeches because many don't do that. We must fight back, we must rebuild what they destroyed and retake what they have taken.
I certainly agree. I just wish there was a more clear cut and obvious way on how to push back. Contacting journalists tends to go nowhere and mainstream media will rarely publish anything that goes against the narrative. Although I admit I smile when certain socjus members are outed for being the liars they are, I also do not like smear campaigns by extremists nor do I consider them particularly effective. Those individuals still get most of the attention or the ability to speak in front of the UN regardless.

Personally, I tried to take to writing articles that were entirely backed up with facts and sources. I had to stop for financial and family reasons though so I was never able to gain much traction with it. I've thought about starting up again and posting through medium.com now that things are getting better, but it is still tucked away where most people aren't going to read it. Some sort of central online repository that linked to and focused on moderate writers might be a good start so others could find their work, but we need a lot more people writing and sharing their voice.

Otherwise, I'm at a loss for what all moderates can do. The campaigns to contact advertisers aren't bad, but it is still only a small step and many advertisers also side with identity politics. After all, even Intel partnered up with Feminist Frequency.

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Brasas: Even worse, the increasing popularity you mention - first with the Wii and then with Mobile (and in parallel with boardgames) - meant gaming started to become normalized as entertainment, and the stigma was lifting. And then almost exactly at that point - pressure, pressure, pressure. Shitstorm.
This is what frustrates me more than anything. It really felt like video games were becoming the norm. Sure, not everyone was playing the latest AAA title, but it was easy to see that people were discovering the joy of video games through their phones and tablets. You could hear that passion in their voice as they talked about the latest match-3 or adventure game they were playing. It was really quite wonderful. I even found myself discussing games more with strangers and finding many people in my area (it is a small conservative town) who were just as into the hobby as I was.

Then the group preaching identity politics came along and changed the narrative entirely. Now gamers are back to being maladjusted young men, only this time they are specifically white and misogynists as well. All of this despite evidence to the contrary.

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Brasas: Almost cruel, but of course there was no malignant conspiracy planning such whiplash. There is causation but only in that the increasing popularity of vidya attracted / reinforced behaviors. Also likely there's a degree of rationalization for lack of market success... blame the audience, a la misunderstood genius is a stereotype with some truth in it.
I don't believe it was so much a conspiracy overall, but I do believe Sarkeesian (or McIntosh) carefully selected video games as they were an easy target. She herself claimed to not be a video gamer in one presentation. Obviously this is not an outright requirement to critique the medium, but it does suggest that she had no vested interest in it other than gaining ground to push her agenda. After that, the rest just fell into place as more people hopped on board and made their own outlandish statements.

It is a real shame too. I feel there are some very legitimate areas that warrant discussion. Due to her taking absolute positions and avoiding nuance though, it has caused everyone else to dig in their heels and act the same way on both sides. A missed opportunity for real progress and change.
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LeonardoCornejo: ...
and they try to expand their influence to STEM.
...
How if I may ask? I would hope that STEM is less susceptible to such nonsense, but I don't really follow these things. I do know of that absolutely reprehensible episode where that Rosetta mission scientist was made to apologize for his t-shirt.
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Kurina: snip
Agree on the commercial interests of several involved. Although human motivations are always so mixed, so I'm sure there's a a large mixture of good intentions, self-interest, some malice on occasion.

And yup. on the tragedy of it. The attempt to accelerate change which would have pretty much happened organically ended up slowing it down.
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Vainamoinen: You're drawing Jack Thompson out of the hat as if that wasn't a disbarred lawyer who actually wanted to ban violent video games. There's literally zero grounds for comparison here. You seem to not know what the people you criticise actually stand for. I would guess you e.g. didn't actually listen to Quinn and Sarkeesian at the UN, you just breathed in the snippets that "anti SJW" activists readily interpreted incorrectly for you.
If you take the time to read my post again I did not compare Jack Thompson to the current situation. I was merely speculating that people did not push back sooner against Sarkeesian because they perceived her to be of little threat, the same as Jack Thompson who also accomplished very little. Obviously that did not turn out to be the case. I was by no means comparing actions or ideologies of the two individuals though, just their perceived presence by the gaming community.

As for the rest, you should really stop making generalizations about everybody. I am very well aware of what these individuals stand for but I cannot agree with everything they say or do. Their actions are those of extremists who seek to deceive others for personal gain. Sorry I cannot take such people seriously, especially those who focus so much of their attention complaining about life's luxuries (social media & video games) while real suffering continues elsewhere.
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Vainamoinen: I'll gladly take your list of cherry picked abuses and will evaluate each and every one of them according to quality, quantity, morality, reach and result. ... snip snip snip
Even if they are mostly outside of gaming? I'm not super keen to derail and fatigue us. I can PM you stuff as I see it though. Might be an interesting exercise if we both do that and learn better what the other considers outrageous and where we agree on same.

Also I refrained from listing stuff because in gaming the pushback was such that to a large extent GG "won" despite the PR failure. I mean in gaming itself, one situation that is fresh on my mind is the effort to pressure some kind of minis' producer to I guess enforce safe spaces in stores. Some older stuff I recall was the brouhaha against Brad Wardell, or the brouhaha against Cards Against Humanity. All of these are examples of outrage porn serving as rallying flags IMO.

Speaking of rallying flags, did you check my link on ethnogenesis?

As to rebuttals quality - 90% of everything is crap. There are good critiques of Sarkeesian, but they obviously are a minority of all critiques. The Kerzner lady, Diana? and a guy called Mytheos Holt? come to mind as some of the best I remember reading. As far I recall you dismissed both almost a priori...
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LeonardoCornejo: ...
and they try to expand their influence to STEM.
...
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Matewis: How if I may ask? I would hope that STEM is less susceptible to such nonsense, but I don't really follow these things. I do know of that absolutely reprehensible episode where that Rosetta mission scientist was made to apologize for his t-shirt.
You named an example of that. Other examples would be for example Richard Dawkins being rejected from many communities over twitter comments, the fat acceptance movement trying to convince the world that being excessively overweight is not a health risk, trying to convince the world that gender roles have no connection with hormones, biology, and sexual dimorphism, firing STEM professors, teachers, and doctors for saying something un PC, trying to apply "intersectionality" to STEM fields, trying to convince the world that the concept of transgender is not all in their heads but a physical reality, and so on.

Basically trying to use STEM to turn their fake reality into the real world by convincing people it is that way and backing it with misused data.
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LeonardoCornejo: ...
and they try to expand their influence to STEM.
...
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Matewis: How if I may ask? I would hope that STEM is less susceptible to such nonsense, but I don't really follow these things. I do know of that absolutely reprehensible episode where that Rosetta mission scientist was made to apologize for his t-shirt.
Although Leo already addressed this with some examples, I thought I might toss on a few more to show the absurdity of much of this. As far as hysterics go, Tim Hunt is one of the greatest examples I know of. He gave a speech which started out with a self-deprecating joke about himself and one about women, then he went on to applaud the female scientists in Korea for the amazing work they do and encouraged them to continue. The latter part was conveniently left out and people raised hell about the joke. As a result Hunt was forced to retire from his honorary position and from a European science council (can't remember which). He was made an outcast and the truth was only revealed after the fact.

As for science itself, one university created specifically a feminist biology class. Another peer-reviewed article was released suggesting syllabi be made to sound less competitive and more friendly so as not to scare women away. There have also been some studies released such as one on glaciers and feminism where they suggest to create a "feminist glaciology framework" and discuss alternative representations of glaciers. Apparently, the field has been dominated too long by men and masculinity and it is time to challenge their work. It seems men and women don't look at giant mounds of ice the same way.

Personally, I would expect the scientific method and elimination of bias to be the focal point of research. Apparently others disagree and believe it needs to be viewed with more bias.
Post edited April 11, 2016 by Kurina
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LeonardoCornejo: Last night I got a hit of nostalgia and decided to play Sim City 2000, and as I start my city I get a newspaper with something quite interesting...

[See attached picture]

I assume by this point you already saw the picture, if you didn't, do it now because otherwise you won't get my point.

The thing is, I have been pointing for a while that even with the censorship in video games being rather high during the 80s and 90s, in particular in the console market, we have reached a historical low in the industry regarding free speech and thought policing. Political correctness infected the industry and it is going to harm it a lot, well, it already did.

We have other issues, many of which also resonate with the ethical concerns of GG, such as abusive DRM (Come on! Much likely you like GOG's DRM free stance), microtransactions in paid games, mostly in AAA titles, crappy DLC sold at expensive prices when it should have no cost, less expansions and more "episodic" games, and other unethical practices which harm the industry, but SJWs (I lack a better term for that collective of individuals and ideologies such as Feminism, queer theory, those who complain about cultural appropriation, and other postmodern and cultural marxists madness), have created a threat that on its own is as big as all those previously mentioned threats combined by effectively preventing content creators from doing what they want.

Just imagine if a game now would put a joke like that on the screenshot provided. It would be attacked by ideologues (Or should I say idiots?) such as Brianna Wu, Anita Sarkessian, John Mongo McIntosh, Zoe Quinn, Tim "I actually made mildly sexist games" Schafer, Phill "I sold you a game that is not that great as if it was the holy grail" Fish, Lacy "MTV is getting dumber" Green, and that other MTV woman who said political correctness increased freedom of speech because it "added new words" by following the example of 1984's newspeak.

And you know what? I even managed to measure, based on when I began to hear claims of sexism in video games more often and other stupid PC nonsense when it all began, it was in 2012, no coincidence it was when Anita Sarkeesian began to target video games, it was a team effort of these ideologues and paragons of censorship to take control of one of the few media industries they could not get under their stranglehold. Sarkeesian was the forerunner of their taint, the pioneer of third wave feminism, and maybe feminism in general, as well as all those other social justice related ideologies, in gaming. She was their vanguard, and since gamers did little to stop them and only the most reactionary and angry responded, often in the worst way possible, she led SJWs to victory in the first battles.

But it gets uglier, what is seen clearly as satire and a joke in that screenshot, basically telling the player that PC should never and would never get that absurd has already happened. And you see it in some forms of feminist newspeak such as "herstory" and "womyn", they warned us, they thought it would not happen but still left a cautionary tale, and still everyone was taken by surprise by this wave of nonsensical and insane ideologies that do more harm than good.
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Emob78: Just imagine if this modern SJW 'revolution' was not just inspired by, but actually created by the same people? A very large hamster cage, all for us. One giant, hilarious scam. Creating real revolutions by using the social reactions manipulated by artificial revolutions. Talk about predictive programming.

It would possibly be the greatest trolling of all time. I'd certainly have to nod my bro hat in their direction, even if I think they're scumfuck bastardos for doing it.
There are no conspiracies, there is only the chaos of actions and reactions, Sarkesian is a smart con-artist that seen very clearly, that if she criticized religion or some other big patriarchal topics she could have problems, she chosen a VERY EASY TARGET, and also with the seeds of stupidity on it. Why I am saying this? Because gamers are, in a large number of occasions, stupid, not all of course but many. So she targeted a very unoffensive group, in terms that they live, we live, in virtual pop culture issues.

So she nailed it. INTERNET SERIOUS BUSINESS, and every threat, every insult, every BS, is just "children ranting in the internet"

So the irony is that the new ¨Marxism" of social virtual justice rights floats in the consumerism era of the nothingness, aka Pop Culture, with companies that change their whole strategies for the words of the almost impossible to SERIOUSLY measure chaos of Social Media.

The only problem is that monsters create other monsters, and as Conejo said, SJW nailed to make angry some of the most open-minded and libertarian sectors, losing people that been always at their side with extreme stupidity like inter-sectionalism, cultural appropriation, to also give the perfect excuse to big monsters, as Trump, to grow bigger and bigger. Actually the reason for the raise of the new ¨left¨ is the extreme commodity of a extremely liberal society, and the new raise of the extreme right is the stupidity of this new "left".
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Brasas: The thing is Vaina, that one of the let's say "terminal values" of the culture that GamerGate represents is almost absolutist free speech.
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Vainamoinen: Not for Beamdog, apparently. :|

But the call isn't to make Vox Day shut up. The call is to not grant him the immense privilege and power of speaking for a supposed consumer army united against what is, in essence, a nazist enemy concept.
I love how you guys handle the ONE person here willing to talk to you. You downvote him because his views are different from your own, extolling your free speech values while trying to silence him through bullying him via the voting system. I guess that explains all the downvotes for Siege of Dragonspear and any positive reviews for it. The only free speech that matters is your own, right?

Don't worry, I know you'll downvote this too and come up with one of your usual bullshit reasons for why I, or anyone else who does agree with you, am wrong.

Sorry for violating your "safe space." Fucking hypocrites.
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YaTEdiGo: The only problem is that monsters create other monsters
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Video game violence & glorification must be stopped—it is creating monsters! (Donald Trump, 2012)
"The problem" is that people call other people "monsters".
Post edited April 11, 2016 by Vainamoinen
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Vainamoinen: Not for Beamdog, apparently. :|

But the call isn't to make Vox Day shut up. The call is to not grant him the immense privilege and power of speaking for a supposed consumer army united against what is, in essence, a nazist enemy concept.
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TVs_Frank: I love how you guys handle the ONE person here willing to talk to you. You downvote him because his views are different from your own, extolling your free speech values while trying to silence him through bullying him via the voting system. I guess that explains all the downvotes for Siege of Dragonspear and any positive reviews for it. The only free speech that matters is your own, right?

Don't worry, I know you'll downvote this too and come up with one of your usual bullshit reasons for why I, or anyone else who does agree with you, am wrong.

Sorry for violating your "safe space." Fucking hypocrites.
Fitting title you have there, but you are actually right, this downvoting stuff is very silly.

Besides I love Vains Name.
Post edited April 11, 2016 by Reaper9988
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TVs_Frank: I guess that explains all the downvotes for Siege of Dragonspear and any positive reviews for it. The only free speech that matters is your own, right?
Make this person your king. His logic is infallible.
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TVs_Frank: I love how you guys handle the ONE person here willing to talk to you. You downvote him because his views are different from your own, extolling your free speech values while trying to silence him through bullying him via the voting system. I guess that explains all the downvotes for Siege of Dragonspear and any positive reviews for it. The only free speech that matters is your own, right?

Don't worry, I know you'll downvote this too and come up with one of your usual bullshit reasons for why I, or anyone else who does agree with you, am wrong.

Sorry for violating your "safe space." Fucking hypocrites.
this thread isn't a "safe space" I feel that honor should go to "gaming*" but we can't have that can we? it ALL has to be full on progressively regressive anymore. while gaming is for everyone that does not mean that each individual game should be.

*An all inclusive space where we can enjoy ourselves & each other and where we don't need to worry about real world issues
Post edited April 11, 2016 by Rusty_Gunn
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Kurina: If you take the time to read my post again I did not compare Jack Thompson to the current situation. I was merely speculating that people did not push back sooner against Sarkeesian because they perceived her to be of little threat, the same as Jack Thompson who also accomplished very little. Obviously that did not turn out to be the case. I was by no means comparing actions or ideologies of the two individuals though, just their perceived presence by the gaming community.
[...] Sorry I cannot take such people seriously, especially those who focus so much of their attention complaining about life's luxuries (social media & video games) while real suffering continues elsewhere.
The pushback against Anita Sarkeesian could not possibly have come any 'sooner'. It has started when her Kickstarter went online, i.e. a year before an argument was even voiced. Anita Sarkeesian is part of the gaming community, so this really is an internal struggle in games culture, as much as some people attempt ideological ousting. Definitely not the entire gaming community pushes back against Anita Sarkeesian, she is welcomed by many (deemed 'corrupt' and 'SJW'); and vocal prominent critics of Sarkeesian's work show the tendency to expressly not belong to the gaming community, i.e. constitute actual outside forces.

Thompson, forgive me that I myself compare and contrast now, can not understand how express members of geek/game culture are able to criticise details about the industry and the narrative media that they LOVE. Consequently, he is not able to understand Anita Sarkeesian:

If you are fighting with an industry, you don’t accept their awards and try to be some sort of heroine to that industry. Pathetic, really. She’s not a warrior on the issue.
Mr. Jack Thompson's assessment here is correct: Sarkeesian is not a 'warrior' like himself who "fights against" the industry (or the consumers of its products even). But these are the only paradigms he is able to think in. It would be great to have a debate outside of them.

Your focus on 'real suffering' is certainly laudable, but if you don't attribute any importance on "first world problems", i.e. interactive entertainment media, you're not just in the wrong thread but also in the wrong forum. :|

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Brasas: Even if they are mostly outside of gaming? I'm not super keen to derail and fatigue us.
I'm all for considering intersectional issues, as you well know, but this would indeed take us too far. I'll gladly extend the scope to non interactive fiction if that helps any. "How the SJW ruin my games/books/movies" could be the focus if you like.

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Brasas: Some older stuff I recall was the brouhaha against Brad Wardell,
The guy who set gamergate's victory conditions to be literal control of the press according to his unspecified absolute definition of "neutral", and with express firing of unwanted personel. I remember him all too well. Sorry Brasas, that guy doesn't get my vote. Then again, I also didn't urinate in GOG's servers when they started having his games over, I'll say. :|

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Brasas: The Kerzner lady, Diana?
I've watched some stuff of Kerzner that was borderline reasonable, though I think it was quite a different topic. She still bases her criticism of Sarkeesian on deeply wilful misinterpretation, in my opinion (off the top of my head, I remember how Sarkeesian's "Listen to women" somehow even translates to "never believe men" for her, serving as the basis for an entire article).

By the way, "GG" is a TV series with six excellent and one abysmal Season, one that gets a netflix revival this year. I'm always having a bit of trouble understanding those letters as an abbreviation for 'gamergate'. :)
Post edited April 11, 2016 by Vainamoinen