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General discussionThe #Gamergate news thread(8424 posts) (8424 posts) 
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This is my favourite topic
Posted November 14, 2015
And let me talk a little more about the difference between honestly pursuing social justice and being a social justice "warrior".
Today's example is Vainamoinen.
You may recognize how antagonistic this individual is to anyone who disagrees.
So, as I said before, someone truly seeking equality and social justice is doing so because it's necessary and the truth. They have respect from both genders or all races. They are seeking the same fairness for all.

Then you have your social justice warrior, using Vainamoinen...
So one day, a typical day...Vain as usual calling out anyone who doesn't agree with him as a "conspiracy theorist" or whatever condescending terms he was using that day...
On this day he took a special tact, announcing how he was going to use the terms of service of this site and start reporting people...
So, I haven't gotten to the real social justice warrior part yet...stay tuned...this part is great...

As usual, Vain was in complete denial that anything anyone else here has to say has any truth whatsoever...
But he decided to take his social justice "crusade"...his social justice warrior nature a step further...

So Vainamoinem responded to one of my posts which I had edited for a typo and changed it...
He added a line that included "YOU LYING INCOMPETENT SJW JEWS" attributed to me...
This is the extent these social justice warriors will go. Lies and slander. Why tell the truth when you can make shit up to attack another's character and try to get them removed from a forum, right?

This is Vainamoinem personified. A liar, a cheat. Someone who is not averse to using racial bigotry to slander someone in pursuit of his cause...Vain, the social justice warrior crazy...
Posted November 14, 2015
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RWarehall: First, you need to read your own links. The important one is is the percentage of games purchased by gender. Note: this includes console and mobile games. 59% of games purchased by men vs. 41% by women. Not 50/50 at all. Furthermore, from what I've read elsewhere, this figure may drop to about 1/3 counting only computers and consoles. Or in other words, 2 men buying games for every woman.
I stated that it's close to 50/50 for _games playing_, which it clearly is, so obviously I did read my own links. Obviously this can include both casual and hardcore players.
Games purchased by gender might be important depending on how it was asked - as you've pointed out, if the question is vague then a percentage of either group is likely to be people buying games as gifts for someone else.
I agree that when looking at the breakdown we can draw various different conclusions but that wasn't really the point, I just wanted to link to basic facts that we do have so far to help that side discussion not go into pure speculation and prejudice. Yes, people can manipulate statistics and you have to read the entire study and more to get (close to) the full picture, but this is what we have so far unless you have something better to link to. I didn't try to obscure any part of the study I linked to, in case it came off that way.

"Furthermore, from what I've read elsewhere, this figure may drop to about 1/3 counting only computers and consoles."

Ok, so link us to what you've read?

"The next trick, "Do you own a console (Wii, PS4, etc) in your home?" The purpose here is to count mothers and significant others in the statistic who may or may not be playing games on a regular basis. I'm saying to be careful with statistics, they are easy to manipulate."

Maybe that's true, but this goes for men/dads as well and they're still very close numbers. I do think that a question like "do you own a console that you bought yourself and that you play on?" would've given more meaningful results.
You could add "regularly" at the end to determine if they're more hardcore about it, or even ask if they call themselves gamers, if you find that interesting. But I personally don't think it's that relevant to the bigger picture.

"if you really look at it with the goal of the actual truth, you'll find that lies probably somewhere in the 33% to 40% range of female to male game purchasing and/or buying",

That might be true, I mean it wouldn't surprise me. But really you're just guessing here.
Post edited November 14, 2015 by ResidentLeever
Posted November 14, 2015
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RWarehall: And let me talk a little more about the difference between honestly pursuing social justice and being a social justice "warrior".
Today's example is Vainamoinen.
You may recognize how antagonistic this individual is to anyone who disagrees.
So, as I said before, someone truly seeking equality and social justice is doing so because it's necessary and the truth. They have respect from both genders or all races. They are seeking the same fairness for all.

Then you have your social justice warrior, using Vainamoinen...
So one day, a typical day...Vain as usual calling out anyone who doesn't agree with him as a "conspiracy theorist" or whatever condescending terms he was using that day...
On this day he took a special tact, announcing how he was going to use the terms of service of this site and start reporting people...
So, I haven't gotten to the real social justice warrior part yet...stay tuned...this part is great...

As usual, Vain was in complete denial that anything anyone else here has to say has any truth whatsoever...
But he decided to take his social justice "crusade"...his social justice warrior nature a step further...

So Vainamoinem responded to one of my posts which I had edited for a typo and changed it...
He added a line that included "YOU LYING INCOMPETENT SJW JEWS" attributed to me...
This is the extent these social justice warriors will go. Lies and slander. Why tell the truth when you can make shit up to attack another's character and try to get them removed from a forum, right?

This is Vainamoinem personified. A liar, a cheat. Someone who is not averse to using racial bigotry to slander someone in pursuit of his cause...Vain, the social justice warrior crazy...
Use the Terms of service to report people? For what? I doubt anyone here has violated the TofS - at the very worst maybe very mildly. And I believe we're all paying customers. What a puny plan! Ooh! be afraid, be very afraid. She/he/it can attribute something to me and report me if it wants and then at least one lying losing Sjw crazy will learn about REALITY!
Post edited November 14, 2015 by noncompliantgame
Posted November 14, 2015
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ResidentLeever: "if you really look at it with the goal of the actual truth, you'll find that lies probably somewhere in the 33% to 40% range of female to male game purchasing and/or buying",

That might be true, I mean it wouldn't surprise me. But really you're just guessing here.
Where is your game playing proof? I don't see it.
You link to Favslist which allows preferences by gender...
Participants women = 322
Participants men = 2916
Or just 10% women using your own link...
And there is quite a difference between genders of many games on the list...

Even the ESA article with a low threshold for "game-playing" including mobiles says its 56% men and 44% women. Despite huge ownership numbers of over 90% which has a tendency to skew all numbers toward 50/50.

I don't see this 50% you claim at all. It's always funny when someone claims something then links to articles which don't say what they claim...

As to the actual number, we are all guessing, because no one can count everyone, but I'll put forth that going with 33% or one third is a pretty fair middle ground. Not 10% as the Favslist might indicate and not 44% which is the highest number you've managed to come up with.

But none of this addresses the fact that developers are going to make the style of game they wish. If they want to make a game such as the Witcher 3 based on a popular book series inspired by 13th century Poland, it's rather disingenuous for the SJW types to claim the game is racist due to lack of ethnic characters, right? Or their silly claims that because it's just fantasy, why can't they just add non-historical diversity to the game? Or every other leading question whose sole goal is the shame the developer into complying with their diversity demands.

Similarly, I think it would be silly to suggest Brianna Wu should add playable male characters to her game Revolution 60 which features only women and the enemies are all male goons. I don't see anyone claiming she should yet isn't that a bit ironic? Games made by males must be made inclusive but those by women shouldn't? Strange when Brianna Wu herself chooses to condemn games for content when her own games are rather one-sided in that regard.

At the end of the day, its better to let developers make the games they wish. I'm not opposed to individuals offering suggestions, but when those "suggestions" take the form of a Twitter mob backed by "invested" journalists exaggerating these claims and blowing them up worldwide to promote some bigger agenda about "diversity" or "patriarchy", I personally cannot support that.
Post edited November 14, 2015 by RWarehall
Posted November 15, 2015
low rated
RWarehall

What if making games the have more diversity of character is what developers want to make? Maybe when they do that it'll make the game more profitable? I'm afraid you are grasping at straws here.
Post edited November 15, 2015 by ryannaughton1138
Posted November 15, 2015
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RWarehall: Where is your game playing proof? I don't see it.
Quoting myself:
"Based on Favslist, women and men want to play mostly the same games"

That means taste in games, not the gender divide between people who play games, which was the next link.

"Even the ESA article with a low threshold for "game-playing" including mobiles says its 56% men and 44% women."
Yes? I said it was close, not that it was exactly 50/50.

"because no one can count everyone"
But you don't really need to count everyone.
http://www.robertniles.com/stats/margin.shtml
So regarding the Favslist example, 300 is kind of a low sample size and unfortunately it's by far the largest on that site AFAIK, but hopefully they will grow in the next few years for some of the lists on there.
Edit: I guess you also have to consider that it's a site that people come to and that they tend to have decent knowledge of and experience with gaming, not a random survey, so you're not gonna get a lot of casual gamers there I don't think.

"But none of this addresses the fact that developers are going to make the style of game they wish. If they want to make a game such as the Witcher 3 based on a popular book series inspired by 13th century Poland, it's rather disingenuous for the SJW types to claim the game is racist due to lack of ethnic characters, right? Or their silly claims that because it's just fantasy, why can't they just add non-historical diversity to the game? Or every other leading question whose sole goal is the shame the developer into complying with their diversity demands. "

Sure, I'm on board with at least the first statement. I don't think it's silly to want diversity in a fictional setting though, it's a matter of preference (for most anyway) and companies can probably profit from it, I don't have numbers on that.

"At the end of the day..."

Yes, agreed here as well.
Post edited November 15, 2015 by ResidentLeever
Posted November 15, 2015
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ryannaughton1138: RWarehall

When if making games the have more diversity of character is what developers want to make? Maybe when they do that it'll make the game more profitable? I'm afraid you are grasping at straws here.
How about dealing with proof and facts instead of theory of what if like it is fact?

I think that's the difference between real social justice and extremist.
Post edited November 15, 2015 by Gnostic
Posted November 15, 2015
low rated
Gnostic

Allright, here is some proof for you. One of the developers of EVE Online, Zedrik Cayne did a blogpost about GamerGate from the perspective of a game developers, and unfortunately the forum's posting system is acting up so can't put link in here. So you should probably search for "#GamerGate...from a dev's viewpoint."

Her is a taster of what it is like:

"I just had a discussion on Twitter where I got an impassioned plea to "Don't Change Our Games" and "we aren't trying to press an agenda on you." Which prompted me to write this. If your agenda is "Don't change our games! Don't cater to ." You are pressing your agenda on us as much as the "You have to your games" that you are railing against."
Posted November 15, 2015
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ryannaughton1138: Gnostic

Allright, here is some proof for you. One of the developers of EVE Online, Zedrik Cayne did a blogpost about GamerGate from the perspective of a game developers, and unfortunately the forum's posting system is acting up so can't put link in here. So you should probably search for "#GamerGate...from a dev's viewpoint."

Her is a taster of what it is like:

"I just had a discussion on Twitter where I got an impassioned plea to "Don't Change Our Games" and "we aren't trying to press an agenda on you." Which prompted me to write this. If your agenda is "Don't change our games! Don't cater to ." You are pressing your agenda on us as much as the "You have to your games" that you are railing against."
So how do I check your "proof"? is there a screenshot with an archive link? And yes I noticed you are the neg & no I didn't downrep you.

I feel that devs shouldn't be coerced into adding "token" characters for the sake of putting a check mark on a BS P-Correctness form.


Offtopic: are you having an issue using the "reply" button?
Posted November 15, 2015
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ryannaughton1138: RWarehall

When if making games the have more diversity of character is what developers want to make? Maybe when they do that it'll make the game more profitable? I'm afraid you are grasping at straws here.
Then let them make it. But the recent Linkle debacle shows who doesn't want developer's creations as opposed to their own twisted wants. Also; care to define the term ''inclusive''? Or address any other argument I made to your previous post?
Posted November 15, 2015
OM Gauwd(s) : https://twitter.com/whenindoubtdo/status/665664435579658240
Post edited November 15, 2015 by Shadowstalker16
Posted November 15, 2015
low rated
Shadowstalker16
How is the Linkle situation a debacle? It's just a gender bent Link that's being added to the game. There is nothing sinister going on here.

Also regarding making the man who started an anti-Gamergate hashtag look like he was one of the terrorists who attacked Paris, all I can say is this.

Stay classy Gamergate, stay classy.

Rusty_Gunn
TL;DR sometimes I'm able to post links when I post on the forum, sometimes I can't. Also in terms of the blog post, it can be searched for on Google. It is still up.

Plus it should be devs aren't being forced to include token characters. When they do appear in games they are made because of a conscience choice
Post edited November 15, 2015 by ryannaughton1138
Posted November 15, 2015
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ryannaughton1138: RWarehall

When if making games the have more diversity of character is what developers want to make? Maybe when they do that it'll make the game more profitable? I'm afraid you are grasping at straws here.
You are the one grasping at straws. If that's what they wanted to do, they'd be doing it and wouldn't need "help" from the SJW brigade. Furthermore, if women were such a high percentage of game players, why are sites like Favslist 90% men. And I looked at the games lists. They were not nearly the same. Games like Star Citizen and the new Doom were much higher on the lists of men than women. If you are merely talking terms such as "action" "puzzle", they are vague enough, but facts are still facts...I dare people to look for themselves...

Once again you bring nothing to the table but your own assertions...

And I notice how you aren't linking to the posts by any number of developers complaining about the SJW brigade trying to force these changes on them. So, you pick one developer out of the hundreds, and because he has a n issue with Gamergate, this one developer represents all of them? Who the heck is grasping at straws...

Like I've said, Ryan, you are a bad troll...
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ryannaughton1138: Stay classy Gamergate, stay classy.
So you are blaming Gamergate because the media can't fact check anything? How about you stay classy? Once again, blindly blaming Gamergate with zero proof. Typical SJW to me...
Post edited November 15, 2015 by RWarehall
Posted November 15, 2015
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ResidentLeever: snip
Frankly, I'm just trying to place the facts where they lay. At least in terms of PC gaming, on some objective basis that accounts for total playing time and the number of games bought, it looks to me that women account for closer to 1 in 3 than 1 in 2. The point about the 300 sample size wasn't meant to discredit the statistics, but instead pointing out how only 10% of those on that site are women posting their preferences. Doesn't that in itself suggest that the real number is not 50/50?

The bigger issue is this so-called "common sense" argument that adding diversity would somehow auto-magically increase sales. That it somehow stands no risk of turning off the core base players that might buy a title and is somehow only a win-win. Let's just say I'm not convinced at all. But maybe that's because most of these diversity campaigns are a bunch of random complaints about boob-armor and exaggerated claims of over-sexuality of the characters; lack of female characters in any number of historic simulations where one cannot play a female Teutonic Knight; or random claims of games being too white because it is a developer they've had an existing ax to grind.

If the complaints were more focused and specific and didn't sound like an all-out attack on certain developers such as Brad Wardell for daring to successfully defend himself from a sexual harassment lawsuit (which he won with prejudice), I might have more sympathy. But I've played some of these games garnering complaints and frankly, they are usually grossly exaggerated and cherry-picked complaints that can apply to both sexes.

When you see complaints against games like Bayonetta where the character designs are willingly designed by a woman (I;ve read translated interviews with her), yet they call the game hideously sexist and seem to blame some level of "patriarchy" in upper-management, it's hard to take many of these SJW crazies seriously.
Posted November 15, 2015
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ryannaughton1138: Shadowstalker16
How is the Linkle situation a debacle? It's just a gender bent Link that's being added to the game. There is nothing sinister going on here.

Also regarding making the man who started an anti-Gamergate hashtag look like he was one of the terrorists who attacked Paris, all I can say is this.

Stay classy Gamergate, stay classy.

Rusty_Gunn
TL;DR sometimes I'm able to post links when I post on the forum, sometimes I can't. Also in terms of the blog post, it can be searched for on Google. It is still up.

Plus it should be devs aren't being forced to include token characters. When they do appear in games they are made because of a conscience choice
lolwut? Did you read anything? One of your reasonable professional journalists who aren't in need of ethics policies took a photoshopped image of that Sikh guy with a suicide vest shopped onto him and wrote an article about him allegedly being an islamist terrorist. Like seriously? You saw photoshop and GG and you assumed GG photoshopped that guy to be a terrorist?

I see no reply to my previous argument. So you can't prove any lack of inclusiveness, where its coming from, how its affecting minorities or what ''inclusiveness'' even means. So all your advocacy is based on psuedoscientific dogma? And you wish to impose this as some proven fact on game creators? 10 /10 m8. Praise Da Mother Sarkeesian amiri8?
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionThe #Gamergate news thread(8424 posts) (8424 posts) 
(8424 posts)