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General discussionThe #Gamergate news thread(8424 posts) (8424 posts) 
(8424 posts) 
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This is my favourite topic
Posted August 20, 2015
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babark: Hereby at the start of every review ever to occur:
"In the interests of full disclosure, I feel it is necessary to state that I obtained this game that I am reviewing here, otherwise I would not review it. It was obtained through interacting with the developer of the game, either by providing money for said game, or receiving said game without money"
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227: Except there's no need to disclose if you bought the game because that's the ordinary and expected way of obtaining games, and actual disclosures are typically simple little blurbs at the top or bottom that just say that they received a review copy. Your absurdly verbose and needlessly complex example is a massive strawman to make the idea of disclosing things seem ridiculous and unneeded, and it has no bearing in reality.
But disclosing which things?
Again, this conversation didn't start with a question of buying or receiving review copies but with the propriety of a writer covering a developer whose work he had previously paid for. That seems like a very unusual disclosure to require, and I'm trying to tease out what makes it necessary in this case.
Posted August 20, 2015
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fanlist: Again, this conversation didn't start with a question of buying or receiving review copies but with the propriety of a writer covering a developer whose work he had previously paid for.
He didn't pay for the work, because the game is free. He donated money. This was unnecessary to covering the person in question.
Posted August 20, 2015
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227: No? That's not at all what I'm saying. They just have to inform the readers of that detail. That's all.
So if the reviewer bought the physical collector's edition with the fancy doodad, they should inform the customer? If they bought the digital copy, but spent $10 more than was necessary because it gave them a fancy flappy velvet cape in-game, they should inform the customer?

The facetious and verbose review preface I gave up there seems to be more and more relevant. It is amazing that every review doesn't start with a lawyerised tome's worth of prefaces just in case the penny that the reviewer once used to unscrew a drain ends up in the hands of the developer.
Posted August 20, 2015
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babark: So if the reviewer bought the physical collector's edition with the fancy doodad, they should inform the customer? If they bought the digital copy, but spent $10 more than was necessary because it gave them a fancy flappy velvet cape in-game, they should inform the customer?
Really starting to regret getting into this while on my phone. Not a platform conducive to quick back-and-forth.

And would the reviewer not mention the fancy doodad or fancy flappy cape? Seems like a strange omission if they felt it worth the increased cost. Even then, they bought it like everyone else and it's probably not a big enough deal to mandate a disclosure. But hey, taking everything I say and blowing it up into bizarre hypotheticals is lots of fun. Especially since we already covered how most reviewers don't actually buy the games they cover.
Posted August 20, 2015
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fanlist: Again, this conversation didn't start with a question of buying or receiving review copies but with the propriety of a writer covering a developer whose work he had previously paid for.
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227: He didn't pay for the work, because the game is free. He donated money. This was unnecessary to covering the person in question.
No one ever claimed that it was necessary, I'm just not sure why it's ethically problematic. Must a writer always disclose that they have previously purchased a product (not one under review) from the subject of a story?

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227: And would the reviewer not mention the fancy doodad or fancy flappy cape? Seems like a strange omission if they felt it worth the increased cost. Even then, they bought it like everyone else and it's probably not a big enough deal to mandate a disclosure.
This seems like it's just a straightforward abandonment of your position?
Post edited August 20, 2015 by fanlist
Posted August 20, 2015
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227: And would the reviewer not mention the fancy doodad or fancy flappy cape? Seems like a strange omission if they felt it worth the increased cost. Even then, they bought it like everyone else and it's probably not a big enough deal to mandate a disclosure. But hey, taking everything I say and blowing it up into bizarre hypotheticals is lots of fun. Especially since we already covered how most reviewers don't actually buy the games they cover.
Actually, you said buying games was the ordinary and expected way.

But yeah, since most reviewers don't buy the games they cover, and everyone knows this, what exactly is unethical? People would already have factored in the "The writer got the game for free, let me adjust my interpretation of their appreciation of the game". So now you're saying if they bought the game (although they didn't have to) then they should disclose that too? :D
What if the reviewer was interested in the game, thus bought it personally, and then was given a review copy to review the game? Would it suddenly become unethical not to disclose this?

I'm blowing everything up to bizarre hypotheticals because it seems that the "ethicalness" (or lack of) here has not been clearly laid out. Feel free to get to your computer to respond when you can. I know I jumped in on a (probably tangential) conversation here and went my own way with it. But I'm off to bed for now.
Posted August 20, 2015
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fanlist: No one ever claimed that it was necessary, I'm just not sure why it's ethically problematic.
The same reason it's ethically problematic for reporters to donate money to politicians. While it's unavoidable that reviewers obtain the games they review by either buying them or receiving a copy gifted to them for review purposes, they should still strive to avoid supporting public figures they may have to cover, and if they support them anyway, the least anyone could ask for is a disclosure or for someone else to write the story. It's dishonest to write about someone you have a preexisting relationship with, monetary or otherwise, without telling the reader about that relationship. I don't understand why this is such a bizarre thing to expect from someone claiming to be a journalist.

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fanlist: Must a writer always disclose that they have previously purchased a product (not one under review) from the subject of a story?
You already asked that, and I already answered.

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babark: Actually, you said buying games was the ordinary and expected way.
Expected and default on the part of consumers because that's how most people buy games, which is why I pointed out the Steam reviews where consumers often point out when they receive a review copy (example). Buying games is considered the ordinary way for most people to obtain them because not everyone is a reviewer, so it's considered ethical to point out when one uses review copies.

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babark: So now you're saying if they bought the game (although they didn't have to) then they should disclose that too? :D
Except I said that it probably wouldn't be worth a disclosure. I just think it'd be strange to pay extra money for something and not mention the things you got for that extra money. Are you actually reading my replies, or just automatically responding based on one or two words you see?

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babark: What if the reviewer was interested in the game, thus bought it personally, and then was given a review copy to review the game? Would it suddenly become unethical not to disclose this?
I don't know about ethics, but it would be a crime against humor to not disclose that.

(And you know you can just not accept review copies, right? That's a thing. I've done it. It's fun.)
Post edited August 20, 2015 by 227
Posted August 20, 2015
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fanlist: No one ever claimed that it was necessary, I'm just not sure why it's ethically problematic.
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227: The same reason it's ethically problematic for reporters to donate money to politicians. While it's unavoidable that reviewers obtain the games they review by either buying them or receiving a copy gifted to them for review purposes, they should still strive to avoid supporting public figures they may have to cover, and if they support them anyway, the least anyone could ask for is a disclosure or for someone else to write the story. It's dishonest to write about someone you have a preexisting relationship with, monetary or otherwise, without telling the reader about that relationship. I don't understand why this is such a bizarre thing to expect from someone claiming to be a journalist.
A "preexisting relationship" in the sense of purchasing a product is pretty tenuous. How many sports reporters wear Nike or Adidas shoes without disclosing it in stories about those companies' sponsored leagues/teams/athletes? Can stock analysts make a "buy" recommendation on Coca-Cola without mentioning the beverage they had with lunch? Must automotive writers include the make of their current car in every article? How about their past cars?

I'm curious if you see different ethical features in these situations. I see them as essentially the same, and also the same as writing about someone to whose work you have a subscription.
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fanlist: Must a writer always disclose that they have previously purchased a product (not one under review) from the subject of a story?
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227: You already asked that, and I already answered.
"...I wouldn't think it's something that needs to be disclosed unless they felt that their experience with said game impacted (or could be perceived by readers as having impacted) their ability to fairly interpret whatever they're writing about."
So if Kuchera didn't feel that his Patreon subscription impacted his ability to be impartial, he was under no obligation to disclose it?
Posted August 20, 2015
We should all thank Vain for derrailing the thread with a dubious accusation.

I am not sure, but if I were Trump I would not have paid to be called a fuckface by a Super Sayan.

Honestly, I don't think Briebart got paid at all. I think they decided to write in favor of Trump to spite SJWs, Louder with Crowder wrote good things about him without the need of pay.

And the source is not a credible one. I mean, it is BuzzFeed, a tabloid that thrives on lies and celebrity nonsense.
Posted August 20, 2015
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LeonardoCornejo: We should all thank Vain for derrailing the thread with a dubious accusation.
You realize we've been discussing the ethical obligations of video game journalists, right? Not Trump at all?
Posted August 20, 2015
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fanlist: This seems like it's just a straightforward abandonment of your position?
Sorry, missed this edit while I was on my phone. Prefacing this again with this just being my take on ethics and how they apply to the medium (and others in GG may disagree with me entirely on this), I'd only say that it comes down to the intent behind disclosing things: if you're spending 10 more dollars than the normal price, most people wouldn't consider that any more of an issue than someone picking up a game while it's on sale. If there's a super-mega-10,000-dollar special edition and they buy that one, then obviously that should be brought up. Kickstarter can be donated to in small or large amounts, so I feel that clarification on that point is necessitated by the subsequent uncertainty so that the reader knows where the writer is coming from.

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fanlist: A "preexisting relationship" in the sense of purchasing a product is pretty tenuous.
Again, he didn't purchase a product from the individual he was covering. He was donating money in a way that had nothing to do with his job.

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fanlist: So if Kuchera didn't feel that his Patreon subscription impacted his ability to be impartial, he was under no obligation to disclose it?
You're comparing my responses to different situations as though they're equal to others; if he had merely bought and/or played a game from said individual in the past, disclosure becomes a judgment call based on whether or not he feels he can be impartial (and again, ideally he would pass on the story to someone else, but let's assume for the sake of argument there's no one else on the planet who can write this story and it's important enough to not just pass up on). Donating money to someone outside of what's required for his job, however, is personal support that occurs outside of the context of his job. Donating money is showing a vested interest in the success of that person, so the objectivity is gone and they need to disclose this for their readers to understand where the writer is coming from. Not disclosing in this situation is pretending to be objective when you aren't.
Posted August 20, 2015
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fanlist: This seems like it's just a straightforward abandonment of your position?
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227: Sorry, missed this edit while I was on my phone. Prefacing this again with this just being my take on ethics and how they apply to the medium (and others in GG may disagree with me entirely on this), I'd only say that it comes down to the intent behind disclosing things: if you're spending 10 more dollars than the normal price, most people wouldn't consider that any more of an issue than someone picking up a game while it's on sale. If there's a super-mega-10,000-dollar special edition and they buy that one, then obviously that should be brought up. Kickstarter can be donated to in small or large amounts, so I feel that clarification on that point is necessitated by the subsequent uncertainty so that the reader knows where the writer is coming from.

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fanlist: A "preexisting relationship" in the sense of purchasing a product is pretty tenuous.
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227: Again, he didn't purchase a product from the individual he was covering. He was donating money in a way that had nothing to do with his job.

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fanlist: So if Kuchera didn't feel that his Patreon subscription impacted his ability to be impartial, he was under no obligation to disclose it?
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227: You're comparing my responses to different situations as though they're equal to others; if he had merely bought and/or played a game from said individual in the past, disclosure becomes a judgment call based on whether or not he feels he can be impartial (and again, ideally he would pass on the story to someone else, but let's assume for the sake of argument there's no one else on the planet who can write this story and it's important enough to not just pass up on). Donating money to someone outside of what's required for his job, however, is personal support that occurs outside of the context of his job. Donating money is showing a vested interest in the success of that person, so the objectivity is gone and they need to disclose this for their readers to understand where the writer is coming from. Not disclosing in this situation is pretending to be objective when you aren't.
You keep saying buying games "outside of what's required for his job" is ethically dubious, but that's awfully limiting. People work in the enthusiast press because they love the medium they write about. It's only natural that they purchase and consume a great deal of it outside of their professional obligations, and through a variety of channels.
Patreon is way to pay for, among other things, games and games writing. It isn't like a donation to a political candidate; it's a subscription to someone's work, and it buys early access, exclusive versions, things a games enthusiast might enjoy. It no more implies a personal vested interest than, as I keep repeating, a subscription to an MMO. If any and all recreational expenditures on games are suspect, then, well, good luck convincing anyone who actually likes games to write about them.
Posted August 20, 2015
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fanlist: Patreon is way to pay for, among other things, games and games writing. It isn't like a donation to a political candidate; it's a subscription to someone's work, and it buys early access, exclusive versions, things a games enthusiast might enjoy.
Are we going to get into which definition of "patron" the site's name is based off of next? I have to say, it's amusing that we're possibly among the first to consider these relatively new online places and how they fit in to journalistic ethics. At any rate, the site explicitly mentions being designed to "support" creators, but that's probably splitting hairs. More to the point, the SPJ code of ethics outright states that journalists should "avoid conflicts of interest, real or perceived" and "disclose unavoidable conflicts."

However you want to spin Patreon, it's clearly a perceived conflict of interest and should then at the very least be disclosed. But yes, journalists have to be careful about what they support; someone covering a political race can't put signs endorsing a candidate in their front yard, for example. Being a journalist means forgoing some of the stuff that they'd probably like to engage in, but that isn't befitting of those in the profession.
Posted August 20, 2015
As always there is a question of extent. I doubt anyone is going to claim a Kickstarter conflict of interest of a journalist paying for the "copy of the game" tier. But if that same journalist is contributing to the $500 tier and that game is being reviewed, that journalist shouldn't be involved in that story because they are obviously biased.

As to Patreon accounts, that is a person who has already been giving money to the developer. That is a bias. That person should not be writing reviews for that person's game because that person cannot be trusted to be objective about it.

This is how it's supposed to work in journalism. When writing a story for publication, biases and conflicts of interest should be avoided whenever possible. Someone contributing to a developer's Patreon account shouldn't be writing about or reviewing that work if at all possible. If there is no one else qualified to write a particular story (no one else is knowledgeable enough about the subject matter or whatever), then that person is expected to disclose any conflicts of interest they have. If that person worked with a relative, had a minor role on the political campaign. They are expected to explain any biases they might have so that the reader can fairly judge what is written.

For Ben Kuchera to be providing money on Patreon and then writing an article about this person and something that just happened, don't you think it's important to know about this? Can you not see how contributing to Zoe Quinn's Patreon and then writing an article about Gamergate is a conflict of interest? That by contributing to that Patreon, one of perceived to have taken sides? That the article is not being written by an unbiased objective journalist?
It should also be noted that many game reviews these days include how the game was obtained and whether it was gifted, a pre-release, a beta copy or whether they paid for it.
Post edited August 20, 2015 by RWarehall
Posted August 20, 2015
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LeonardoCornejo: We should all thank Vain for derrailing the thread with a dubious accusation.
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fanlist: You realize we've been discussing the ethical obligations of video game journalists, right? Not Trump at all?
I thought you were still discussing about that. I did not notice when the topic shifted.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionThe #Gamergate news thread(8424 posts) (8424 posts) 
(8424 posts)