TwilightBard: The problem is, the movement is about Games Journalism and the Ethics there. No matter how you slice it, Valve is a developer and store owner, Gamestop is a retail company, Apple is a hardware company primarily, EA and Warner Bros are publishers. IGN is the only one of those that's in the Games Journalism industry, and Ethics will do a lot to fix problems, and if not it's a damn good staging area to find out what is broken.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/gamergate-interviews/12391-Glaive-GamerGate-Interview One of the interviews that was done about Gamergate, I want to focus on this in particular. TwilightBard: Now, I'll be honest, I don't like seeing people unemployed, I'm a human, I'm not heartless (Wish I was some days but that has nothing to do with Gamergate and more about my personal issues). I'd rather see people make a conscious effort to turn and change their ways.

I do have to admit I was wrong to get so angry, watching people dogpile on someone who is calling out the assholes on both sides does not sit right with me. It gets me angry and it's a degree of anger that's hard for me to step down from right away (Nor is it good for my health but that's another story).

I think the worst of it is, 99.999999999999999999% of the Gamergate people I have been in contact with find the threats and harassment deplorable, and willing to call out the assholes doing it. But that leaves us asking for proof because we can't simply call someone out when we don't know who this person is or what they said.

Do I think Gamergate can still do some good? Yes, I am in the belief of that, but the problem becomes that people aren't willing to sit down and talk, they want to scream. People want to make this a political left vs. right thing, but most Gamergate people are liberals who lean more towards libertarian (I gotta find that proof again, there was a topic in one place that had a huge questionnaire about it).

I think the big issue, is that it exposes a problem in people, we're unwilling to actually check what's going on, and instead just trust a news source, and this whole thing has stripped a lot of trust I had in Journalists in general. It's GOOD to question things, it's good to question information, it's good to sometimes look into the issues on your own instead of what someone has decided is what you need to see. We need to see both issues, we need to have people covering all of the angles, and asking a simple question: Why are both sides yelling about different things? Why is no one noting that no one condones harassment and no one wants gaming to be exclusive? That what we want is for people to make the games THEY want, and for Games Journalists to be Ethical in their profession?

jefequeso: Hold on... I was under the impression that Libertarianism was a form of Conservationism? At least in terms of liberalism being more about government involvement, and conservationism being the opposite. Or are we saying socially, libertarianism is more like liberalism?

Clearly, I'm an EXPERT in politics :P

TwilightBard: The scale was libertarian vs. authoritarian for social, liberal vs. conservative for economics. Actually...let me go look for this again! I'll be back.

Edit (Addition): Actually yeah, I was right. I can even paste up mine if people want to see it, although I don't have the answers I gave to the questions.

jefequeso: Ahh, gotcha. That makes a lot more sense to me. Liberal/conservative = economics, authoritarian/libertarian = social issues.

Now I'm trying to figure out where I fall... definitely libertarian when it comes to social issues (or at least the way I look at the relationship between legislation and morality), but given I know jack shit about economics, I don't really know whether I'm conservative or liberal...

Problem is, I see the advantages and disadvantages of both views, which leads me to throwing up my hands in despair and saying "screw it, nothing ever works, ever."

I guess if I'd sooner side with capitalism than socialism/communism... so, conservative? I guess?

See, I have no trouble figuring out where I stand philosophically or religiously, but when it comes to politics, I'm lost.

I know this has no bearing on the discussion whatsoever, but it got me thinking :P

TwilightBard: The scale was libertarian vs. authoritarian for social, liberal vs. conservative for economics. Actually...let me go look for this again! I'll be back.

Edit (Addition): Actually yeah, I was right. I can even paste up mine if people want to see it, although I don't have the answers I gave to the questions.

TwilightBard: The problem is, the movement is about Games Journalism and the Ethics there. No matter how you slice it, Valve is a developer and store owner, Gamestop is a retail company, Apple is a hardware company primarily, EA and Warner Bros are publishers.

TwilightBard: People want to make this a political left vs. right thing.

Vainamoinen: The conflation of industry and press is the problem. Trying to just find transgressors on the side of the journalists - the takers, the bribed, the suckups - is like trying to assemble half a puzzle. Nothing fits.

That's the mode of investigation I'm seeing at work here. Only one half is even looked upon. When journalists like Alexander positively attack the industry, it tells us absolutely nothing about corruption. No such transgression is even remotely visible in Sarkeesian's videos, which are not even 'games journalism':

No sir, this kind of investigation is stumbling in the dark and beating yourself on the head with an unlit flashlight.

What the fuck is up with Warner Brothers' Shadow of Mordor review contracts, what the fuck led 2K to let one journalist do an "exclusive" review of Bioshock Infinite, why the hell doesn't Apple publish games about sweatshop conditions, how can Gamestop own a supposedly independent video game magazine, what influence over the press has Valve because of Curator, and don't even get me started on Electronic Arts. These are not just 'some' questions. These should be GUIDING questions in finding out what's wrong with the industry and the press.

StingingVelvet: I saw Danny O'Dwyer from Gamespot say today that rightly or wrongly GamerGate is tied to these harassment issues, and is forever tainted by it. I would maybe regroup and take some time off, if I were them, and then re-brand. I don't think a movement can ever be effective if it's tainted by such a bad public image.

TwilightBard: The thing now is, that people have put their careers out there (There are a bunch that came out with The Escapist doing interviews). And my belief is that if Gamergate backs down, any attempt to rebrand later is going to require a spark to get this kind of movement going. Backing off is to a lot of people, giving up, considering we're fairly loosely connected. People go off, do their own thing, and most just give up.

That's not to mention that backing out and coming back is going to change the landscape, it's going to show people that they can use any means necessary to hurt things that they don't like, and not only will it stick, it will taint them forever and basically delay any real problem solving.

I do understand what you're saying, but if we're wrongly accused, isn't backing down basically saying outright 'Harassment was all this was about, and we're walking away because it's not longer easy or fun.'

RWarehall: Except that any new movement will be re-branded the same. Seriously, as a movement of 1000's without an organized structure, how would one put the breaks on?

About Game Informer, it's interesting, but I actually used to read the reviews. I mean, you are given it for free, it talked about current and upcoming games.

The biggest problem with trying to discuss anything on the topic, whenever there is something discovered and the anti-GG people have nothing to say about the topic at hand, they'll just jump in and yell "Harassment"

For example, when one of the anti-GG people contacted a guy's employer and got him fired, the response...
Zoe and Anita had to leave their homes, their lives were threatened. No remorse for the poor guy who lost his job.

You bring up developers who have come out and talked about some of these feminist groups making unworkable demands of their games. The response...Gamergate is about hatred and misogyny toward women, etc.

Even with the stab in the dark approach, a lot of interesting information has come out, like the review contracts, like the former editor of Gamespot getting the axe for allowing a poor review to be published under pressure from that game's advertiser.

But we can't talk about any of that without certain people calling the discussion a sham cover-up for some deeper misogynist secret agenda. Ironically, a secret misogynist agenda which seems to be discussed exclusively on public forums.