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amok: Except for games like Depression Quest? or Gone Home (as I have seen many times mentioned as not a game...). Or even frowning on so called 'casual games', and saying 'Candy Crush Saga' or 'FarmVille' as if it was swear words... I would really like everyone to make sure games are much more tolerant spaces.
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Shadowstalker16: They don't have mechanics. The only have maximum of 51% of a game with 50% narrative and 1% mechanical complexity, IMO. But it takes shit to see it lacks mechanics. Its obvious. Same with other antigames. Candy Crush and such braindead games insultingly dumb; rfrom the POV of a person who gives priority to mechanics. Its has its players, but it has no business with real mechanically complex games.

Tetris has mechanics. The number is low, but the shape matching system and speed and all that forms a cohesive mechanical experience. A mechanically complex game isn't a pixel-art style thing. Take Assassin's Creed for example.

Too bad there is that vegetable outgrowth MacIntosh trying to impose hisopinion as facts in an attempt to censor games. No tolerance without good riddance I say.
So much for games needing more tolerant spaces... but each of the games do have mechanical, if they did not they would not be interactive. They may not have many and they may be very simple, but they do have mechanics.... and you added up 102%
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keyvin: Why all that hate about short "art" style games? I've paid $5 for a 20 minute short story before. What's the difference?
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Shadowstalker16: You have a REALLY loose idea of what you call hate. Are you dumbfounded that games have both mechanic elements and immersive elements, and people who prefer mechanical elements, like most hardcore gamers want mechanics over immersion-building elements like writing and character development? Are you not able to live with that view?
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dragonbeast: one can very much argue you are not getting your moneys worth then. Imagine a AAA declaring have to pay 1 $ for every 4 minutes you play. Everyone would hate that. But it's ok if indies do it?
This is strange to me. I buy a game to have fun playing the game. Economics don't really enter into it, and I've paid $50 for a AAA title that I get six hours into and quit because it isn't fun. Assasin's Creed 1 was just too repetitive for me for instance.

I mean, I wouldn't pay $60 for a two and a half minute game. But saying a two and a half minute game that cost $1 and provided a meaningful experience is a rip off? It's a snub to the concept that games are also art. Is it really ripping off your clients if in the description you say it's under 5 minutes?
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Shadowstalker16: They don't have mechanics. The only have maximum of 51% of a game with 50% narrative and 1% mechanical complexity, IMO. But it takes shit to see it lacks mechanics. Its obvious. Same with other antigames. Candy Crush and such braindead games insultingly dumb; rfrom the POV of a person who gives priority to mechanics. Its has its players, but it has no business with real mechanically complex games.

Tetris has mechanics. The number is low, but the shape matching system and speed and all that forms a cohesive mechanical experience. A mechanically complex game isn't a pixel-art style thing. Take Assassin's Creed for example.

Too bad there is that vegetable outgrowth MacIntosh trying to impose hisopinion as facts in an attempt to censor games. No tolerance without good riddance I say.

+1 remember kids
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Fever_Discordia: That's ridiculous, Candy Crush is a FAR more mechanically complex and strategic game than Tetris with a much greater range of challenges
From simple 'beat a score limit' to Clear all the icing in a set number of moves (make a match 3 on specific squares of the board) and then 'get the fruit to the bottom of the board' challenges, then there's the bonus candies you can get for rows of 4 or more and that's just vanilla Candy Crush, there's more yet mechanics in 'Dreamworld' levels and over in 'Candy Crush Soda'
The games are genuinely challenging and have greater depth and variety than Tetris
I don't think casual is a definition for mechanics, although a demand to be a successful casual game are easy to learn mechanics since casual gamers don't really like steep learning curves.

Its more like how deep you have to be in something to know it.

candy crush is casual because everyone knows of it and many people who play it have not the slightest clue about anything else gaming.

In the same way Naruto is considered casual or 'normie' because if people know one anime, its Naruto, often unaware more even exists.

Everyone knows candy crush. Everyone who plays say XCOM knows CC exists, where only a small potion of the many CC players will know what an XCOM is. Those people, who play casual games only and have almost no further knowledge in gaming, those are the casual gamers.

What could be seen as the difference between say tetris and CC is that many of the people who played and loved tetris are the invested gamers of today, since tetris in its start period required a dedicated console thus requiring a decent amount of investment in the gaming hobby. CC is accessible to everyone who has facebook, eliminating the needed investment factor. This is what makes CC more casual than tetris.

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keyvin: This is strange to me. I buy a game to have fun playing the game. Economics don't really enter into it, and I've paid $50 for a AAA title that I get six hours into and quit because it isn't fun. Assasin's Creed 1 was just too repetitive for me for instance.

I mean, I wouldn't pay $60 for a two and a half minute game. But saying a two and a half minute game that cost $1 and provided a meaningful experience is a rip off? It's a snub to the concept that games are also art. Is it really ripping off your clients if in the description you say it's under 5 minutes?
Its just you'll be spending money, and you don't want to spend a lot of money for a game that lasts a blink of an eye.
One could argue that it just isn't fair either, since the chances that a 5 min game had massive development costs are limited. You can find better and lengthier stuff on newgrounds and armorgames for free. So yeah, if you make a blink of an eye vignette game, i'd advice putting it on those sites, you might still earn a little bit from the ad revenue there.
Post edited June 10, 2015 by dragonbeast
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Fever_Discordia: That's ridiculous, Candy Crush is a FAR more mechanically complex and strategic game than Tetris with a much greater range of challenges
From simple 'beat a score limit' to Clear all the icing in a set number of moves (make a match 3 on specific squares of the board) and then 'get the fruit to the bottom of the board' challenges, then there's the bonus candies you can get for rows of 4 or more and that's just vanilla Candy Crush, there's more yet mechanics in 'Dreamworld' levels and over in 'Candy Crush Soda'
The games are genuinely challenging and have greater depth and variety than Tetris
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dragonbeast: I don't think casual is a definition for mechanics, although a demand to be a successful casual game are easy to learn mechanics since casual gamers don't really like steep learning curves.

Its more like how deep you have to be in something to know it.

candy crush is casual because everyone knows of it and many people who play it have not the slightest clue about anything else gaming.

In the same way Naruto is considered casual or 'normie' because if people know one anime, its Naruto, often unaware more even exists.

Everyone knows candy crush. Everyone who plays say XCOM knows CC exists, where only a small potion of the many CC players will know what an XCOM is. Those people, who play casual games only and have almost no further knowledge in gaming, those are the casual gamers.

What could be seen as the difference between say tetris and CC is that many of the people who played and loved tetris are the invested gamers of today, since tetris in its start period required a dedicated console thus requiring a decent amount of investment in the gaming hobby. CC is accessible to everyone who has facebook, eliminating the needed investment factor. This is what makes CC more casual than tetris.
I was mainly refuting Shadowstalkers claims that Tetris had mechanics while CCS doesn't and 'CCS' is 'insultingly dumb' or whatever he said
But saying that there's nothing inherently in CCS, as a game, that makes it more casual than Tetris, it's just the delivery system and availability that makes it a 'casual' game seems flimsy at best - I don't really think either of you can come up with a good, rational reason why Tetris and CCS are sitting either side of the hardcore / casual divide, it's just something you feel because reasons - prejudiced and propaganda

It's not just Tetris either - Columns, Dr Mario, Lemmings, Street Puzzle Fighter, Bust-a-move / Puzzle Bobble, the list goes on...
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amok: Except for games like Depression Quest? or Gone Home (as I have seen many times mentioned as not a game...). Or even frowning on so called 'casual games', and saying 'Candy Crush Saga' or 'FarmVille' as if it was swear words... I would really like everyone to make sure games are much more tolerant spaces.
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dragonbeast: I think the issue many had with those were the fact that they were hailed and praised so much for basically their subject matter, regardless of execution. Gameplay elements are fairly non existent and one can wonder where the line is drawn of actually being counted as a "game".

The issue with casual games is that many people who from time to time play one of those and have no further investment, care or knowledge of games act like they are hardcore gamers, as invested as those who play daily, have it as their main pastime and/or are deeply invested in the entire gaming world. While this may sound bigoted lets draw a parallel.

Imagine you are a very good cook. You love cooking and you do it a lot, both at home and at gatherings with friends events etc. It is your big passion. Enter a nerdy guy who says "oh yeah i'm damn near a professional chef cook myself, after all I make microwave mac&cheese from time to time".
I'm betting that would annoy you a lot too.
I'm a very good cook :)

Are you saying that good cooks should be intolerant towards bad once? or I do not see how it relates...

I was saying that games should be "much more tolerant spaces" - are you arguing against? is that not elitism?

edit - aslo, in the case of Gone Home, the other 'cooks' so far have had nothing but praise for it (that I have seen). the negative views are from the customers.
Post edited June 10, 2015 by amok
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amok: I'm a very good cook :)

Are you saying that good cooks should be intolerant towards bad once? or I do not see how it relates...

I was saying that games should be "much more tolerant spaces" - are you arguing against? is that not elitism?
Imagine someone parading around acting as if and claiming he's at least a good a cook as you, while all he does is warm up dishes in the microwave once every now and then, but he is acting as if he is a chef. Talking to people around you about how its as big a hobby for him as for you and he is just as deeply invested.

Next your favorite supplier of fresh foods suddenly changes it sales into microwave ready food only to make cooking more inclusive. And don't you dare ask for fresh stuff cuz you just want to keep people out of cooking you bigoted *rse.
Post edited June 10, 2015 by dragonbeast
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dragonbeast: What could be seen as the difference between say tetris and CC is that many of the people who played and loved tetris are the invested gamers of today, since tetris in its start period required a dedicated console thus requiring a decent amount of investment in the gaming hobby. CC is accessible to everyone who has facebook, eliminating the needed investment factor. This is what makes CC more casual than tetris.
Tetris didn't require a dedicated console. It was first released on the commodore 64.

Maybe my perspective about gaming is different because I'm old. I remember pumping quarters into arcade games and getting game over within a few minutes.
Post edited June 10, 2015 by keyvin
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amok: I'm a very good cook :)

Are you saying that good cooks should be intolerant towards bad once? or I do not see how it relates...

I was saying that games should be "much more tolerant spaces" - are you arguing against? is that not elitism?
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dragonbeast: Imagine someone parading around acting as if and claiming he's at least a good a cook as you, while all he does is warm up dishes in the microwave once every now and then, but he is acting as if he is a chef. Talking to people around you about how its as big a hobby for him as for you and he is just as deeply invested.
Who are we talking about anyway? Can you prove that people who only play FB games and then claim to be full-on 'hardcore' gamers actually exist outside of your own head?
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amok: I'm a very good cook :)

Are you saying that good cooks should be intolerant towards bad once? or I do not see how it relates...

I was saying that games should be "much more tolerant spaces" - are you arguing against? is that not elitism?
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dragonbeast: Imagine someone parading around acting as if and claiming he's at least a good a cook as you, while all he does is warm up dishes in the microwave once every now and then, but he is acting as if he is a chef. Talking to people around you about how its as big a hobby for him as for you and he is just as deeply invested.

Next your favorite supplier of fresh foods suddenly changes it sales into microwave ready food only to make cooking more inclusive. And don't you dare ask for fresh stuff cuz you just want to keep people out of cooking you bigoted *rse.
ninja edit above.... but the negative reviews on Gone Home is from customers, not from the 'cooks'. So far in the industry, it had nothing but praise....

and yes, you are arguing elitism, not inclusion... because you did not actually respond to my question, just used the same example again.... which do not quite fit... I am good cook, and I like it when anyone tries, no mater which level they are on.

It seems you are arguing now that good game designers will suddenly stop making games?Is that what you mean? not sure how it fits.
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dragonbeast: Imagine someone parading around acting as if and claiming he's at least a good a cook as you, while all he does is warm up dishes in the microwave once every now and then, but he is acting as if he is a chef. Talking to people around you about how its as big a hobby for him as for you and he is just as deeply invested.
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Fever_Discordia: Who are we talking about anyway? Can you prove that people who only play FB games and then claim to be full-on 'hardcore' gamers actually exist outside of your own head?
I was explaining why gamers get annoyed by casual gamers presenting themselves as real hardcore gamers by using an exaggerated parallel.

What i am arguing is just that many times we've seen games altered to also appeal to the casual market. This something that luckily has seen a decrease over the last few years.

Responsible for this i see both the succes in the TBS revival and the succes of the souls series. It showed that trying to pander to everyone doesn't work.

"casual gamers *are* real games. they just like different games... it does not need a parallel. It is what it is."
Exactly, which is why it was wrong of developers to try to appeal to both at the same time. Their overlap was to limited for that.

"Whats the opinion on whether asteroids or pacman are "real" games?"
these days they could be considered casual when going pure by mechanics. But again, in the day of their appearance they were not as readily available and required a decent amount of investment into gaming to get access to them, meaning investment was not a result but a prerequisite to play them. As such the people that played those back in the day are likely o have been and thus still be very invested.
Post edited June 10, 2015 by dragonbeast
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- double posting.... -
Post edited June 10, 2015 by amok
Whats the opinion on whether asteroids or pacman are "real" games?
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Fever_Discordia: Who are we talking about anyway? Can you prove that people who only play FB games and then claim to be full-on 'hardcore' gamers actually exist outside of your own head?
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dragonbeast: I was explaining why gamers get annoyed by casual gamers presenting themselves as real gamers by using an exaggerated parallel.
And I was asking for the examples of "casual gamers presenting themselves as real gamers" that you are saying that gamers are getting annoyed at..

(It occurs to me that there actually MIGHT be good examples of casual gamers being huge dicks but, hey, it will still be educational to see them even if it DOES mean I lose points in the pissing contest...)
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Fever_Discordia: Who are we talking about anyway? Can you prove that people who only play FB games and then claim to be full-on 'hardcore' gamers actually exist outside of your own head?
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dragonbeast: I was explaining why gamers get annoyed by casual gamers presenting themselves as real gamers by using an exaggerated parallel.

What i am arguing is just that many times we've seen games altered to also appeal to the casual market. This something that luckily has seen a decrease over the last few years.
casual gamers *are* real gamers, they just like different type of games. Anything else is elitism. What you have seen is not a decline in "hardcore" games, but an increase in "casual" games. The amount of "hardcore" games is the same as before, but the amount of games in general has increased.
Post edited June 10, 2015 by amok
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Fever_Discordia: Who are we talking about anyway? Can you prove that people who only play FB games and then claim to be full-on 'hardcore' gamers actually exist outside of your own head?
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dragonbeast: I was explaining why gamers get annoyed by casual gamers presenting themselves as real gamers by using an exaggerated parallel.

What i am arguing is just that many times we've seen games altered to also appeal to the casual market. This something that luckily has seen a decrease over the last few years.

Responsible for this i see both the succes in the TBS revival and the succes of the souls series. It showed that trying to pander to everyone doesn't work.

"casual gamers *are* real games. they just like different games... it does not need a parallel. It is what it is."
Exactly, which is why it was wrong of developers to try to appeal to both at the same time. Their overlap was to limited for that.
Ah I see - you, again, have major anxiety about the future and AAA trying to make as much money as possible by dumbing things own for the masses

I always find this a bit odd from GOG types - we play old games, we have 30 years worth of awesome, hardcore gameage to enjoy, enough to last us all multiple lifetimes, why the same amount of anxiety I'd expect from a console kiddie who's supper concerned about 60fps at 1080p?