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Fever_Discordia: snip
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RWarehall: You don't welcome discussion at all. Anyone can look at the last couple weeks of your posts and see that. You have a one-word non-response to everything "MRA". When people try to pin you down on specifically what you actually believe, you dodge them with a flimsy excuse that "it's a trap". You have refused to engage in any actual discussion at all for weeks and yet inexplicably trying to claim you are somehow "winning".

Add the fact that you admitted to coming to the thread to "test your debating skills"; how you've been caught arguing against articles without even reading them (thinking an anti-MRA site was MRA). All in all it's pretty obvious you are trolling. You can claim you welcome discussion all you want, but the fact you've refused to actually engage in any of them just shows your true colours.
I was just throwing something from my Facebook news feed in because I thought it was amusing, no I didn't properly check it out, no that wasn't one of my finer moments...
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2015/05/15/universals1

Penny Arcade taking a shot at outrage culture.
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Fever_Discordia: I... I've put a lot of words in your guy's mouths there, sure, but I'm sure you'll let me know which parts you refute and where my logic is flawed...
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Rusty_Gunn: you don't challenge the content of the Rexxion articles as you see them from an SJW/radfem perspective so you see them as MRA slanted even when they're not.
OK as I'm having a 'Quiet' (Ha!) Sunday and in the vain hope of making Warehall happy lets DO this thing
*clears throat*

On 13th May, Cain Clayton, writing for 'Reaxxion' exposed to the world, the latest nefarious scheme of those dastardly SJWs who wish to crush "creative liberty" in the name of "political correctness"

He asserts that there has been a mass outpouring of outrage at the way sniper character 'Quiet' from Hideo Kojima's upcoming 'Metal Gear Solid V' game is portrayed and is dressed, particularly in relation to the action figure with its use of 'soft materials' in the recreation of the character's ample bosom.

He mainly cites an article written by Vlad Savov for The Verge that begins
"It's 2015, and we finally have female action figures to play with. Only they look like this"

This comment is to be seen against a background of articles like this that lament that the action figure version of the 'Black Widow', character, the only female Avenger character in the feature film version of the superhero team, being swapped out for other members in the recreation of scenes from the film in which she was the main focus in Disney's playsets, denying girls the opportunity to act out their heroic fantasies with a female figure they can relate to and educating boys that male and female character don't always have to fall into the 'hero' and 'damsel' stereotypes

So, to begin with, by implication, Savov is harking back to earlier laments about the lack of presence and exposure of a female action figure, who is admittedly more 'covered up' than Kojima's 'Quiet' but, lets not forget that that covering is a figure hugging spandex jumpsuit, unzipped to the sternum covering a body that is directly modeled on the physical form of actress Scarlett Johansson, hardlythe prudish 'Quakerdom' of Clayton's accusations

Not 'Quakerdom' and, furthermore, hubba hubba

So if the sexualisation of 'Quiet' does cross the line for Sovov's personal sensibilities that line is far closer to where 'Quiet' stands than Clayton is representing, moreover, we can find evidence of Clayton's own prejudices and prudishness, this time in the realm of cross-dressing when he describes cosplayers and artists who have satirically dressed male characters in their female counter-part's attire as 'disgraceful', he also displayed a marked lack of a sense of humor about the trend, seemingly missing the funny side when he says that he believes that those involved believe themselves to be striking a " a decisive blow for “equality.”" and not simply finding an amusing way to make a point about the way female characters are portrayed.

No, the main theme of Sovov's piece (something Clayton is keen to obfuscate when he says "Really, there’s no need to read the rest of his article") is not so much representation but audience, he is saying that it is sad that, in the wake of Black Widow's expurgation, when a female action figure finally comes along it is not designed for the heroic power fantasies of girls but, especially telling from the 'soft materials,' for the sexual fantasies of grown men.

Sovov may stray slightly into the realms of 'otakuphobia' at this point but, I would certainly agree that, from the outside at least, the thought of adult males devoting themselves to the near-worship of animated female characters and their action figures does seem a little... unhealthy to me also. Although, it might be a might be a important first step for those males who are on the autistic scale towards forming a relationship with a real woman, who knows?

On the subject of Kojima himself, it may be wide-eyed optimism on my part but, as both articles attest, he has repeatedly hinted that Quiet is not merely a overly sexualised female character but there are things, yet to be disclosed that will reveal her to be a comment on the over-sexualisation of female characters in video games and the media in general. Remember also that Kojima has a history of playing almost Kauffmanesque practical jokes on his own audience, such as in Metal Gear Solid 2 where Snake was swapped out for Raiden and Kojima went to such lengths as "Preview footage even inserted Snake into sequences that, in the game, were actually played by Raiden."

Quite what the 'joke' will be with Quiet remains to be seen, personally I would speculate that maybe the most obvious jape would be if it turned out that the whole reason Quiet IS so quiet is that if she talked 'she' would reveal that 'her' voice was the deep baritone of a pre-op transexual! Kojima would obviously be treading on treacherous ground if he DID take that route as he could end up being accused of the same transphobia that led to the censorship of the Pillars of Eternity 'amusing' rhyme but for sheer switch-er-roo chutzpah and for duping a legion of 'alpha males' and 'otaku' in to championing him and drooling over a 'chick-with-a-dick' I would have to say, as one troll to another, 'Well played sir, Bravo, Bravo!"
Post edited May 17, 2015 by Fever_Discordia
AKA Kojima not sexist!
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Shadowstalker16: AKA Kojima not sexist!
Well, I would say 'wait and see' and I'll cross my fingers
I think it's sad that everyone cries 'censorship' whenever anyone expresses an negative opinion though...
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Fever_Discordia: snip
... I would have to say, as one troll to another, 'Well played sir, Bravo, Bravo!"
I'm going to let others more informed than me about the particulars address the substance of your post and just ask: are you or aren't you? ;)

No need to answer please. Just consider the meta level: Have you stopped beating your wife? Shit... me sexist! I meant partner...
Some questions frame the answer sir. Looking for misogyny, patriarchy and other forms of oppression without an objective standard means you will always find it.

Ergo: lack of ethics, too much ego. Call it journalism or call it life....
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Fever_Discordia: snip
... I would have to say, as one troll to another, 'Well played sir, Bravo, Bravo!"
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Brasas: I'm going to let others more informed than me about the particulars address the substance of your post and just ask: are you or aren't you? ;)
Again, I thought it was the feminists supposedly lacked a sense of humour, jeez...
Post edited May 17, 2015 by Fever_Discordia
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Fever_Discordia: snip
... I would have to say, as one troll to another, 'Well played sir, Bravo, Bravo!"
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Brasas: I'm going to let others more informed than me about the particulars address the substance of your post and just ask: are you or aren't you? ;)

No need to answer please. Just consider the meta level: Have you stopped beating your wife? Shit... me sexist! I meant partner...
Some questions frame the answer sir. Looking for misogyny, patriarchy and other forms of oppression without an objective standard means you will always find it.

Ergo: lack of ethics, too much ego. Call it journalism or call it life....
OK came back and read it properly -
What question is framing what answer in this instance?
Also now you're talking about the validity of the viewer's interpretation of art, which is fairly sacrosanct in a civilised society
Also I can accuse Clayton of seeing a SJW conspiracy as much as you can accuse Savov of seeing sexism...
Post edited May 17, 2015 by Fever_Discordia
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Shadowstalker16: AKA Kojima not sexist!
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Fever_Discordia: Well, I would say 'wait and see' and I'll cross my fingers
I think it's sad that everyone cries 'censorship' whenever anyone expresses an negative opinion though...
Hmm you doubt whether a man who sexually discriminates against one whole gender can live as a pro game developer in a democratic country and get publishing deals with $ony and M$? Seems baseless to me.

Censorship is not the correct word, I agree. But when people are intentionally outraged by something with the intent that the object of outrage will be made less so, I don't call it ''patriarchy'', or ''misogyny'' or ''sexist'' or any other words in normal day to day casual vocabulary either.
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Fever_Discordia: snip
Too detailed and nuanced for these people. Move along if you want to have an actual discussion about these kind of things.
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Fever_Discordia: snip
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htown1980: Too detailed and nuanced for these people. Move along if you want to have an actual discussion about these kind of things.
That's what I used to say!
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htown1980: Too detailed and nuanced for these people. Move along if you want to have an actual discussion about these kind of things.
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Shadowstalker16: That's what I used to say!
It's difficult because for a lot of people here, either English isn't their first language, which can make precise nuanced discussions particularly difficult, or they are American, which is often very similar to not being a native English speaker.
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Shadowstalker16: That's what I used to say!
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htown1980: It's difficult because for a lot of people here, either English isn't their first language, which can make precise nuanced discussions particularly difficult, or they are American, which is often very similar to not being a native English speaker.
..says the Australian :-p :-D
Also where do you propose I move along TO exactly?
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Shadowstalker16: That's what I used to say!
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htown1980: It's difficult because for a lot of people here, either English isn't their first language, which can make precise nuanced discussions particularly difficult, or they are American, which is often very similar to not being a native English speaker.
Well most people on other forums are worse. GOG is the only mehokay place to discuss controversial stuff. Easier to follow than the chans and not as hateful as reddit.
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htown1980: It's difficult because for a lot of people here, either English isn't their first language, which can make precise nuanced discussions particularly difficult, or they are American, which is often very similar to not being a native English speaker.
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Shadowstalker16: Well most people on other forums are worse. GOG is the only mehokay place to discuss controversial stuff. Easier to follow than the chans and not as hateful as reddit.
chans are so hard to follow because chans can never agree on anything (aside that deus ex is great)