Posted May 10, 2015
Brasas
Abrasive Charpit
Brasas Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Dec 2010
From Poland
Brasas
Abrasive Charpit
Brasas Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Dec 2010
From Poland
Posted May 10, 2015
I don't equate boycott and censorship, but they are pretty similar Fever, they can even overlap somewhat :)
Why do you think it matters how effective the review is or isn't at changing minds? Ethically it's their intent that matters... and their abandonment of journalistic objectivity for mission journalism :)
You also make a point about reviews being inherently subjective. Well duh... but should reviewers try for objectivity or not? I say yes. What say you? Are you another of the postmodernist crowd that think the most important truth is what you believe, because it's impossible to determine objective truth anyway? :)
What we're talking about is the paternalistic trend in social justice activism Fever. Or rather trying to, while being heckled about being misogynists. Here's a couple of quotes I like:
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. ... those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
But to manipulate men, to propel them towards goals which you — the social reformer — see, but they may not, is to deny their human essence, to treat them as objects without wills of their own, and therefore to degrade them.
What do you think? You folks on the left used to understand these things... anti religious secularism and democratic individual agency used to be liberal values... now you're setting up secular "theocracies" in all but name, calling out deviation from your moral norms. :)
Why do you think it matters how effective the review is or isn't at changing minds? Ethically it's their intent that matters... and their abandonment of journalistic objectivity for mission journalism :)
You also make a point about reviews being inherently subjective. Well duh... but should reviewers try for objectivity or not? I say yes. What say you? Are you another of the postmodernist crowd that think the most important truth is what you believe, because it's impossible to determine objective truth anyway? :)
What we're talking about is the paternalistic trend in social justice activism Fever. Or rather trying to, while being heckled about being misogynists. Here's a couple of quotes I like:
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. ... those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
But to manipulate men, to propel them towards goals which you — the social reformer — see, but they may not, is to deny their human essence, to treat them as objects without wills of their own, and therefore to degrade them.
What do you think? You folks on the left used to understand these things... anti religious secularism and democratic individual agency used to be liberal values... now you're setting up secular "theocracies" in all but name, calling out deviation from your moral norms. :)
dragonbeast
rusher
dragonbeast Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Jul 2009
From Belgium
Posted May 10, 2015
what i feel is the difference is
boycott: Hey everyone, do not buy this shite. Just don't.
Censor: This product is for women beaters and rapists. Supporting it = being an abuser.
Censor: CHANGE THIS THING IN YOUR CHARACTER/STORY!!!!!!!!! OR ELSE!!!!!!!
boycott: Hey everyone, do not buy this shite. Just don't.
Censor: This product is for women beaters and rapists. Supporting it = being an abuser.
Censor: CHANGE THIS THING IN YOUR CHARACTER/STORY!!!!!!!!! OR ELSE!!!!!!!
SusurrusParadox
New User
SusurrusParadox Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Mar 2013
From United Kingdom
227
New User
227 Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: May 2011
From United States
Posted May 11, 2015
SusurrusParadox: The sorts of people that reacted particularly viciously are displaying a knee-jerk response to something they value & consider themselves entitled to: 'uncensored' (that is: static, unchanging, stagnant) videogames that display values they personally agree with, and none that they disagree with. If she had fewer mistakes, the response likely would not have been that different; it's still the same perceived 'threat', and thus liable to provoke the same predictable response from the affected parties.
Which viciousness? If you mean the fringe trolls, then yeah, it's frightening that there are actually some people like that out there. That said, I've certainly never seen anyone in GG claim that games like Gone Home shouldn't be allowed to exist. Just that games that aren't like that shouldn't be criticized on the basis of not being Gone Home, and you can see the contempt for such games and those who play them in the Gamers Are Dead articles. SusurrusParadox: The Witcher is a good example really. The world is pretty much an awful hellhole full of awful (human) things.
The first game kind of displayed shitty things on the parts of the devs/players, and this has been addressed moving forward and noted as being an immature thing to do.
The world itself is still the same. Same ol' hellhole (as far as I know; presumably Witcher III retained that atmosphere).
I've not really heard much (if any) feminist/SJW criticism about a 'realistic' portrayal of a sexist racist whatever-else-is-in-there-that-I've-forgotten setting.
So really it's more to do with how that is handled.
I wouldn't be so sure about that.The first game kind of displayed shitty things on the parts of the devs/players, and this has been addressed moving forward and noted as being an immature thing to do.
The world itself is still the same. Same ol' hellhole (as far as I know; presumably Witcher III retained that atmosphere).
I've not really heard much (if any) feminist/SJW criticism about a 'realistic' portrayal of a sexist racist whatever-else-is-in-there-that-I've-forgotten setting.
So really it's more to do with how that is handled.
Narakir
Rebel Scum
Narakir Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Mar 2009
From Switzerland
Posted May 11, 2015
Fever_Discordia: And yes, Anita Sarkessian is one of the first journalists to bring feminist critique to the sphere of computer games, the first form of feminist critique was literary:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_literary_criticism
Well yes, now a technical question : How are critical tools built to analyzes literature and movies relevant to video games and what they offer ? That's where Sakressian get it all wrong, she uses a lot of theoretical tools that aren't adapted and basically analyze games like movies. There's just an evidence of it on her channel, check her videos that actually talk about movies, she just copy paste the same methods in games and hope it works, and I'm not even bringing up how so many times she does bring are irrelevant out of context examples to prove her "point", in a quite intellectually dishonest fashion.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_literary_criticism
Shadowstalker16
Jaded optimist
Shadowstalker16 Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Apr 2014
From India
Posted May 11, 2015
Lol SusurrusParadox said Anita raises good points XD OMG someone apologise for that pwease. She raises NOTHING that is significant to videogames as a medium that is different from film and others. As Narakir said; the application of critique methods which place emphasis on characters and other movie tropes has little bearing on games where entire cities may have single character models and criticism of being able to handle bodies in a stealth game.
If anyone thinks Anita raises good points, they need to give up on understanding that there are differences between movies and games and accept that without being offended. And Witcher 1 and 2 being condemned reflects that that bigot doesn't even know what misogyny is. Collecting cards is misogyny? You know what; hows about someone mention ONE famous misogynist from before the 21st century and lets compare him to depiction of women in TW games. Lets see if Anita's bread teacup holds tea.
An intro to SJgroupthink lingo : http://www.reaxxion.com/8532/20-buzzwords-that-the-left-uses-to-attack-gamers
If anyone thinks Anita raises good points, they need to give up on understanding that there are differences between movies and games and accept that without being offended. And Witcher 1 and 2 being condemned reflects that that bigot doesn't even know what misogyny is. Collecting cards is misogyny? You know what; hows about someone mention ONE famous misogynist from before the 21st century and lets compare him to depiction of women in TW games. Lets see if Anita's bread teacup holds tea.
An intro to SJgroupthink lingo : http://www.reaxxion.com/8532/20-buzzwords-that-the-left-uses-to-attack-gamers
Post edited May 11, 2015 by Shadowstalker16
Shadowstalker16
Jaded optimist
Shadowstalker16 Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Apr 2014
From India
Posted May 11, 2015
And lets not forget the illustrious career of one master Kuchera of course! I'd really like to see what SJWs see in him.http://deepfreeze.it/journo.php?j=Ben_Kuchera
EDIT: Masterlist-http://deepfreeze.it/journo.php
ONE MORE: https://archive.is/1M0UA , reference to pimping; misogynist patriarchy mansplaining manspreading rape culture incoming............
EDIT: Masterlist-http://deepfreeze.it/journo.php
ONE MORE: https://archive.is/1M0UA , reference to pimping; misogynist patriarchy mansplaining manspreading rape culture incoming............
Post edited May 11, 2015 by Shadowstalker16
dragonbeast
rusher
dragonbeast Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Jul 2009
From Belgium
Posted May 11, 2015
i am really looking forwward to the SPJ airplay
Shadowstalker16
Jaded optimist
Shadowstalker16 Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Apr 2014
From India
dragonbeast
rusher
dragonbeast Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Jul 2009
From Belgium
Posted May 11, 2015
Shadowstalker16
Jaded optimist
Shadowstalker16 Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Apr 2014
From India
Posted May 11, 2015
Shadowstalker16: What the heck is that? They can't handle debating with books and TVs so they debate with air?
dragonbeast: The SPJ noticed gg senpai. GG will have a debate (airplay). Speakers are not yet decided. (caused some minor friction since gg does not really favor e-celeb) more news to follow tomorrow
Fever_Discordia
Don't Panic
Fever_Discordia Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Nov 2010
From United Kingdom
Posted May 11, 2015
low rated
Kurina: I don't believe anti-Gamergate realizes that when they make such extreme statements, it becomes harder to take them seriously. It also shows that there is simply no discussion to be found with some people, as they only want a boogeyman to paint as evil for their own personal moral crusade. It is kind of sad, since it hinders any real debate.
I find her particularly frustrating because as a female gamer for just about three decades, I am fully aware of some of the problems that exist and there are some areas that need legitimate discussion. What she has done is made that impossible, because look at what gaming has turned into now. Had things been handled with better care and respect, I have no doubt the community would have handled things differently.
Anyway, just my two cents. Also, everyone needs to stop posting so much while I sleep, too much to catch up on!
I fully admit that Anita's videos are a bit sophomoric, borrow too heavily from TV Tropes and somehow, despite the fact that she is a perfectly attractive woman, her strangely flirtatious style manages to be a bit creepy and inappropriate at times but I wouldn't go as far as to say that it isn't legitimate feminist critique albeit of slightly questionable quality... Fever_Discordia: And yes, Anita Sarkessian is one of the first journalists to bring feminist critique to the sphere of computer games
Kurina: She really didn't though, at least in my opinion. The most she did was grab a list of tropes, find which ones matched the angle she wanted, and tried to disingenuously make an example out of video games. She misrepresents the medium because she is not actually researching it, and instead takes parts of games out of context or outright lies about them. This isn't feminist critique, this is how to make a name for herself fast while marginalizing a group nobody cared about. I find her particularly frustrating because as a female gamer for just about three decades, I am fully aware of some of the problems that exist and there are some areas that need legitimate discussion. What she has done is made that impossible, because look at what gaming has turned into now. Had things been handled with better care and respect, I have no doubt the community would have handled things differently.
Anyway, just my two cents. Also, everyone needs to stop posting so much while I sleep, too much to catch up on!
The argument that she might be saying some of the right things in the wrong way, an overly antagonistic and divisive way that's not the best for gaming, gamers and their communities is potentially more legitimate though.
I was thinking, even as I linked to those wikipedia articles that explained what feminist critique of literature and cinema is, that I'm sure that the people who have misunderstood what Anita is trying to achieve with her videos read books and watch films but appear to have, thus far, gone though life blissfully unaware that feminist critique is even a thing - I think so far it's mainly been something for the realm of lofty intellectual and academic debate, maybe Anita has tried to introduce it to the mainstream badly and in the wrong way
Not that strata of intellectual thought really exist for computer games, with too many high-brow pundits thinking along the lines of Mr Ebert so I guess it is a little chicken and egg, to be fair...
Fever_Discordia
Don't Panic
Fever_Discordia Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Nov 2010
From United Kingdom
Posted May 11, 2015
low rated
Fever_Discordia: And yes, Anita Sarkessian is one of the first journalists to bring feminist critique to the sphere of computer games, the first form of feminist critique was literary:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_literary_criticism
Narakir: Well yes, now a technical question : How are critical tools built to analyzes literature and movies relevant to video games and what they offer ? That's where Sakressian get it all wrong, she uses a lot of theoretical tools that aren't adapted and basically analyze games like movies. There's just an evidence of it on her channel, check her videos that actually talk about movies, she just copy paste the same methods in games and hope it works, and I'm not even bringing up how so many times she does bring are irrelevant out of context examples to prove her "point", in a quite intellectually dishonest fashion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_literary_criticism
For example, there are many games, off the top of my head lets give the examples of Enter The Matrix and Max Payne that are basically just sequences of exposition in cut scenes with extended interactive action sequences in between
If you took a full 'lets play' of Enter The Matrix and removed all of the interactive parts and just stitched the cut-scenes together I see no reason that you could not analyse that AS a film, a short companion piece to the Martix trilogy itself
If you then put the interactive action sequences back in, it's not like the story told by the cut scenes somehow disappears or ceases to matter - you are still being told that story
I don't, by any means, believe that cinematic cut scenes are the only example of a story telling device in games that can legitimately be analysed using the same techniques as those used in cinema but I think it's maybe be the most obvious and hard to refute example
Plus Anita should maybe get something of a 'pioneer pass' I mean I'm imaging now a future documentary saying
"The first wave of feminist critics to analyse games, such names as Anita Sarkessian, simply, crudely applied the same tools and techniques to games as their forebears had applied to film but it wasn't long before others such as..."
Post edited May 11, 2015 by Fever_Discordia
Fever_Discordia
Don't Panic
Fever_Discordia Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Nov 2010
From United Kingdom
Posted May 11, 2015
low rated
Shadowstalker16: Lol SusurrusParadox said Anita raises good points XD OMG someone apologise for that pwease. She raises NOTHING that is significant to videogames as a medium that is different from film and others. As Narakir said; the application of critique methods which place emphasis on characters and other movie tropes has little bearing on games where entire cities may have single character models and criticism of being able to handle bodies in a stealth game.
An intro to SJgroupthink lingo : http://www.reaxxion.com/8532/20-buzzwords-that-the-left-uses-to-attack-gamers
I can't believe that I live in a world where you say these things and *I* get called the troll sometimes! An intro to SJgroupthink lingo : http://www.reaxxion.com/8532/20-buzzwords-that-the-left-uses-to-attack-gamers
I think what you're saying does a gross dis-service to the story-telling power of computer games, for example, Broken Sword was released before the film OR the book version of The Da Vinci Code but, in my opinion tells a similar but superior story with greater characterisation, humor, pace and viewer involvement than either
I've only played the first chapter of the TellTale Back To the Future game but so far I genuinely believe it to be simply THE best Back to the Future IV we could ever hope for at this point in history, as a visual story
And the first couple of Monkey Island games are simply some of THE best stories for narrative and humor I've experience in ANY medium
And that's just the point-and-click adventures, before we even think about stuff like The Last of Us, the wonderfully nihilistic academia of the Half-Life and Portal games or the much copied 'fragmented narrator' story telling device of System Shock 2 where the crew's experience of the last days of a zombie infestation far from home, in deep space is told via found journal entries.
Oh and Planescape: Torment, of course, because mentioning it is pretty much a contractual obligation at this point!
Post edited May 11, 2015 by Fever_Discordia