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General discussionThe #Gamergate news thread(8424 posts) (8424 posts) 
(8424 posts) 
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This is my favourite topic
Posted May 08, 2015
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Fever_Discordia: Spotting an offensive, fan submitted, joke that Obsidian, themselves, admit slipped through proof-reading by accident and pointing it out to them is not censorship it's a heads-up
1) pointing it out to them is VERY mildly put. YOU PEOPLE PROMOTE ABUSE OF TRANS PEOPLE! (i actually read some say obsidian was promoting murder(!!!!!) of trans people)
2) change ingame lore! the game's universe cannot have people who do not like sleeping with people who lie about their gender! Change the universe! CHANGE IT OR ELSE!

i do wonder, had it been a women who killed herself because the man turned out a women, would the attack have been that obsidian <3 rape and abuse of women?

and i'm really sorry, but if people freak out like that whenever anything offends them in the slightest like that, they may be unfit to function in society in their current state and seek professional help.

it is as someone recently said. it isn't about feminism, it's about control. The people censoring and demanding censor want to be in full control.

and you do know people raged at steam allowing hunie pop to be there with the nude patch in existance right? wasn't just about selling hentai / porn games, the fact a nude patch existed and the game was what it was was good enough for an outrage.
Post edited May 08, 2015 by dragonbeast
Posted May 08, 2015
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Fever_Discordia: Spotting an offensive, fan submitted, joke that Obsidian, themselves, admit slipped through proof-reading by accident and pointing it out to them is not censorship it's a heads-up
How does something like that slip by? Custom tombstone text was a 500$ tier bonus, how many of those could exist? Obsidian was fine with the joke until the outrage culture kicked the door in.
Posted May 08, 2015
I said this once, or a few times and I'll say it again; social justice; the principle of day to day people, or normal citizens banding up and enforcing a moral or ethical policing system is highly susceptible to politically motivated and ideologically motivated groupthink and the current state of ''I'm offended'' culture reflects that. We have a situation where the group is highly cohesive and demanding of loyalty from its members, and people who are disloyal are tongue-lashed irrespective of whether they even identify as a member.

What these people are are individuals who think they are fighting for a superior cause and completely hooked into thinking their current stance is the only right one. As far as they're concerned; they're gloriously crusading against what they think is the wrong way.

More or less; they're delusional people tilting at windmills.
Posted May 08, 2015
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Fever_Discordia: snip
Once again you resort to deceptive argumentation. This is why I've called you out as the deceiver that you are.

First, the limerick that many do not find offensive while some uptight neo-feminists do. It was not merely just pointed out. There was a shit storm over it. Neo-fems complained to the publisher, neo-fems cancelling their pre-orders, neo-fems threatening never to buy another game from Obsidian, neo-fems claiming to boycott any store selling the game. And all this over an arguably inoffensive limerick. For you to claim the goal of these complaints were not censorship, shows just how dishonest you are. I cry "Shenanigans!", I cry "Bullshit!".

GTA V petition. Again deceptive argumentation. Notice how Fever claims no evidence of any gamers setting up the petition. And your point is? Fever is trying to distort the narrative. We all know the petitioners are feminists both through the arguments they made and the Let's Play video that Anita used. Most of us suspect they are not actual gamers. But the fact they are not, has nothing to do with the fact that thousands of feminists signed the petition to get the game removed from store shelves. Clearly, feminists succeeding in censoring a product.

Boycotting doesn't equal censorship? Are you totally stupid? The entire point of a boycott is to get a product removed from the shelves. Clearly censorship... I don't even get how you try to make this claim....it makes zero sense.

And notice the way these crazies play their word games. That if somehow if they can wiggle out of and distort the meanings of words like censorship or banning, that this somehow then makes it okay that a product is no longer for sale in certain venues or has had its content changed. The asinine argument that its not censorship or banning in Australia because someone can purchase it elsewhere. The fact it might be available elsewhere is completely immaterial. You could have a game banned on every continent but Antarctica, would that make it not be censorship because someone could go to Antarctica to get it? Again, the neo-fem word games seem to be mostly about distortion and lies.
Post edited May 08, 2015 by RWarehall
Posted May 08, 2015
I can't believe SJW trolling has lasted this long. #GG is pretty dumb in the sene that there is no goal, it should be about the promotion of sites worth reading, and dev support against SJW stupidity, not "Hey take a look at this dumb thing on twitter or this dumd thing kotaku did this week" I am tired of this Biz.
Posted May 09, 2015
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ScotchMonkey: Are people still arguing over the internet about dishonest "journos" that nobody cares about?

Wake me when someone makes an actual Game
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dragonbeast: 1) perhaps people do care about being correctly informed whether a game is a shitty piece of thrash or Montezuma's treasure
2) some people want games without ridiculous censor
3) games are being made, have patience
1.Well its not like the journos were doing a good job anyway. For me it has always been youtube and lets play footage that helped me make my purchasing decisions.

I just think the onus is on the reader to exercise some diligence and verify for themselves through multiple sources (this excludes IGN or big media that cannot be trusted) that a thing is worth his/her money.

I mean the problem is when people just don't do their homework and actually take things at face value. That just strikes me a gullible.

2. 100% on this. Create what you want and go from there.

3. Awww but I want them now ; )
Posted May 09, 2015
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MrESCTheEscapist: it should be about the promotion of sites worth reading, and dev support against SJW stupidity, not "Hey take a look at this dumb thing on twitter or this dumd thing kotaku did this week" I am tired of this Biz.
That should be focused on much more yes. But there have been positive strides in that regard like Hatred being removed and brought back for example.

Also the picture below list a fairer alternative to mainstream coverage.
Attachments:
belr8ok.jpg (425 Kb)
Posted May 09, 2015
http://www.stevenbritton.net/my-stuff/deep-stuff/the-dark-side-of-calgary-expo/

The Calgary Expo may have been acting in a high handed matter to other people before they kicked out the Honey Badgers.
Posted May 09, 2015
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Fever_Discordia: snip
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RWarehall: Once again you resort to deceptive argumentation. This is why I've called you out as the deceiver that you are.

First, the limerick that many do not find offensive while some uptight neo-feminists do. It was not merely just pointed out. There was a shit storm over it. Neo-fems complained to the publisher, neo-fems cancelling their pre-orders, neo-fems threatening never to buy another game from Obsidian, neo-fems claiming to boycott any store selling the game. And all this over an arguably inoffensive limerick. For you to claim the goal of these complaints were not censorship, shows just how dishonest you are. I cry "Shenanigans!", I cry "Bullshit!".

GTA V petition. Again deceptive argumentation. Notice how Fever claims no evidence of any gamers setting up the petition. And your point is? Fever is trying to distort the narrative. We all know the petitioners are feminists both through the arguments they made and the Let's Play video that Anita used. Most of us suspect they are not actual gamers. But the fact they are not, has nothing to do with the fact that thousands of feminists signed the petition to get the game removed from store shelves. Clearly, feminists succeeding in censoring a product.

Boycotting doesn't equal censorship? Are you totally stupid? The entire point of a boycott is to get a product removed from the shelves. Clearly censorship... I don't even get how you try to make this claim....it makes zero sense.

And notice the way these crazies play their word games. That if somehow if they can wiggle out of and distort the meanings of words like censorship or banning, that this somehow then makes it okay that a product is no longer for sale in certain venues or has had its content changed. The asinine argument that its not censorship or banning in Australia because someone can purchase it elsewhere. The fact it might be available elsewhere is completely immaterial. You could have a game banned on every continent but Antarctica, would that make it not be censorship because someone could go to Antarctica to get it? Again, the neo-fem word games seem to be mostly about distortion and lies.
No, no and no you guys overuse and abuse the word 'censorship' as badly as certain Women's Studies professors overuse 'rape' - buy a frikking dictionary already!

Voicing your opinions en masse and effecting positive change isn't 'censorship' it's 'having a voice' - would you seek to silence that voice? Who is wanting to censor who here?

Yes, gamers (although #NotAllGamers, obviously) overreact and stomp their feet and act like spoilt, entitled brats sometimes but it's actually gratifying that it's being done in the defence of a minority in society that does receive hate in real life and who, frankly, have enough on their plate to deal with as it is, for once!

Rather than "OMG they promised 60fps at 1080p but delivered 30fps at 960p" or "The latest installment of my favorite franchise only has a metascore of 85% - this is a DISGRACE" or "I want a refund for the free game I got with my graphics card because I can't redeem it on the DD service where all my other games are and GOG shouldn't be messing with the Saviour of PC Gaming anyway" or "OMG Some people who produce mods for games in their free time might want a little bit of financial reimbursement for their time and effort" there's was buthurt over the chargeable mods and the scheme (for Skyrim at least) got canceled and there was buthurt over the limerick and it got changed - that's just how business gets done around here, are you saying that potential 'premium' mods for Skyrim that now might not be made have been 'censored'?

At first I DID think that the fact that a female dev was attracting heat for being pro-GG was sadly ironic but then I remembered that all anti-GG are saying is "We don't like your opinions or who you are so we're not going to buy any of the games that you produce" Which is actually, fair enough, a statement that you're voting with your wallet, as is your right. Rather than "We don't like your opinions or who you are or the things that you've done so we're going to threaten to kill you, not just on the internet but we're going to find your landline number and harass you in your own home" - GG could really stand to learn some lessons about civilised protest and not being deranged sociopaths from us, really!

Not, of course, that GG had much of a 'vote with your wallet' choice over Depression Quest because, as I may have mentioned, this whole thing blew up of an obscure, tiny, brief, little flash freeware game anyway!
Post edited May 09, 2015 by Fever_Discordia
Posted May 09, 2015
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Fever_Discordia: - GG could really stand to learn some lessons about civilised protest and not being deranged sociopaths from us, really!
i'm sorry but no

there is a difference between asking removal and DEMANDING it.

there is also a difference between " don't become EA charging 10$ for a shit on a stick (literal example)" and "this game is actively promoting abuse of trans people" "the studio that made the game is transphobic" "they encourage murder of trans people"
for a fucking rhyme about a guy killing himself because he did not like that someone he slept with lied about their gender.

and no sorry, anti gamergate has been ANYTHING but civil. Saying anti is very civil is an outright lie.
Posted May 09, 2015
Indeed; there is a difference between carpiling on a developer and abusing them to remove a statement just because they found it offensive. If anyone wants to go beyond this; please put forth the moonlight study that proclaims a joke in a game made people kill transexual people. Until someone can prove this, there is no arguing along the point of ''transphobia'' and promotion of it.
Posted May 09, 2015
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Fever_Discordia: snip
Fever,

I don't rem now when was the last time I tried to dialogue with you.

Do you actually identify as anti-GG? Let me assume yes until you reply... if you'd like to rather say you're pro social justice or something of the sort I can change my arguments.

So, what do you oppose in GG?

The call for better ethics? As you know most of he folks on the GG side trying to talk with you here are at least saying thats what they rally under... so if you oppose that, then why? Because your ethics are different? Let's talk about that... let's prove the public (the polis) that politics can be civil and tolerant. No taboos, no personal insults, a lot of passion and principles, out in the open.

Or do you oppose the harrasment? As you know most of the folks on the GG side consider that a strawman. So if you oppose that, why not make general points about what you find objectionable, without any sort of generalized accusation or attribution of responsibility, and see where that gets you? You cna bring factual examples after the general priciples are clear. Maybe the folks in the thread won't be interested about discussing patriarchy or such, maybe they will, you might be surprised.

Or is it something more personal?
Posted May 09, 2015
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Shadowstalker16: Indeed; there is a difference between carpiling on a developer and abusing them to remove a statement just because they found it offensive. If anyone wants to go beyond this; please put forth the moonlight study that proclaims a joke in a game made people kill transexual people. Until someone can prove this, there is no arguing along the point of ''transphobia'' and promotion of it.
especially since one was a game-lore issue, the other a questionable business practice
Posted May 09, 2015
Look who seems to agree:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKzaQKEyfcY

''cough'' REAL FEMINIST'' cough''
Posted May 09, 2015
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Fever_Discordia: snip
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Brasas: Fever,

I don't rem now when was the last time I tried to dialogue with you.

Do you actually identify as anti-GG? Let me assume yes until you reply... if you'd like to rather say you're pro social justice or something of the sort I can change my arguments.

So, what do you oppose in GG?

The call for better ethics? As you know most of he folks on the GG side trying to talk with you here are at least saying thats what they rally under... so if you oppose that, then why? Because your ethics are different? Let's talk about that... let's prove the public (the polis) that politics can be civil and tolerant. No taboos, no personal insults, a lot of passion and principles, out in the open.

Or do you oppose the harrasment? As you know most of the folks on the GG side consider that a strawman. So if you oppose that, why not make general points about what you find objectionable, without any sort of generalized accusation or attribution of responsibility, and see where that gets you? You cna bring factual examples after the general priciples are clear. Maybe the folks in the thread won't be interested about discussing patriarchy or such, maybe they will, you might be surprised.

Or is it something more personal?
To be perfectly frank, my involvement with this entire debacle outside of this thread is minimal to none but I think it important that there's SOME voice of opposition around here

Plus, debating this here has been a lot more entertaining and educational for learning about the debacle, the players and the state of the Feminist / MRA dichotomy in the world in general than any hours I might have spent staring at impenitrable blogs posts for the already invested by guys yamming on about salt and sammiches or walls of text on Wikipedia and The Rational Wiki, also here on GOG it is a relatively 'safe' environment to debate and explore this stuff because, I like to think we're just a bit more grown up and civilised around here, all of us

But, yeah, for the purposes of this thread, I guess you can think of me as someone who is opposed to GG

Simply because I believe that it's the harassment that's real and the ethics are are straw man - not because I don't think there's an issue with ethics in game journalism AND the games industry but because it's so pervasive that you can pretty much dig dirt on whoever you want to and I think the targets you have chosen are very telling

You say that issues on the AAA side already get publicity while Indies have had a free ride but doing the exact opposite isn't balance, you just look like you're constantly punching down on the little guy (or girl, especially girl), worrying about nickels and dimes while the big bucks are being extorted by the big guys

You say that it's about ethics in JOURNALISM not ethics in THE INDUSTRY but you never really give a good rationale for this focus plus, in a lot of cases, its indie DEVS like Zoe who have borne the brunt of your ire and not the unethical journos

I don't think it's being too conspiracy theorist to think that your true agendas have more about fear and prejudice towards, women, arty 'hipster' game or (non-game) styles, favoring corporations over privateers or just general fear of change

In fact coming back to talk about 'ethics' always seems like a reset switch when we get too embroiled in Feminist / MRA debates, but why IS that? Why are Feminists on the anti-side and MRAs on the pro side? Could it be one of the signs that GG isn't about ethics, but about opposing change, progress and advancement?

You accuse us of group-think while you wave these basic truths away as you continue to delude yourselves and ignore the mainstream-media view, not saying that there isn't groupthink over here, just saying that to point it out is hypocrisy

But, for the record though, as a gamer, the fact that Anita's brand of feminist critique is not tolerated in the world of my favorite form of entertainment media is a fucking embarrassment, makes me think that, while we may not all be 'neckbeards' maybe we are basically cry-baby man-children who jealously guard our toys and maybe gaming ISN'T an appropriate hobby for someone approaching their 40s, no matter how much I defend it to people, in real life, who think that it isn't, after all!
Post edited May 09, 2015 by Fever_Discordia
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionThe #Gamergate news thread(8424 posts) (8424 posts) 
(8424 posts)