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htown1980: time is about to prove "what is really right and what is wrong"?
Time isn't judging or proving anything, it is neutral.

Who are you to decide what is right or wrong?
Isn't this the fascist mind-set you should be arguing against?

All this deflecting and distracting in order to justfy aggressive redefining of traditions. Why?

And what the hell does it have to do with gamergate?
Actually, I'm currently at a loss regarding the flow here.

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dragonbeast: i'd say religious texts are far closer to fantasy (tale of a lone white mage, using non-violent ways (OT was violent, J.C. did not like violence) to help the people in need but the evil king hunts him down and eventually captures and kills him)
So, how many different religious texts did you read before coming to this conclusion?
Religion and superstition are not one and the same although often intertwined.
Post edited April 14, 2015 by Klumpen0815
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htown1980: snip
Ill get back to your big post when I have some hours mate, I won't forget. I do expect you'll be disappointed however since your summary that I'm replying to is precisely what I consider as non sequiturs. I do understand it's more comfortable for you to discuss religious bigotry than ideological bigotry, but we did get to religion and same sex marriage as one example of how reactions to intolerance can be much more intolerant that the original problem. Right? Or you didn't notice how everyone (attention, it's hyperbole) in this thread keeps going on about the intolerance and lack of ethics of SJWs?

I also can repeat myself by the way: Debate ethics of marriage with someone else.
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htown1980: So if time proves what is really right or wrong, you must be accepting that there is a period, before time has worked its magic, that the norm is wrong, but still is the norm? So a norm isn't always just a norm, it can also be right or wrong (or as you have shown neutral), right?

Putting to one side the whole "marriage has been around for millennia" thing (not in most countries, it hasn't - certainly not in mine), how do you think "time proves what is really right and what is wrong"? It just happens? You don't think people get involved at all?

How do you think time ended slavery? That had actually been around for millennia. That was the norm. Do you think people wanted to change that thing that had been working for millennia? Would you have called BS on them?

What if, in relation to gay marriage, we are at that time that you have identified, where it is currently the norm not to permit it, but where time is about to prove "what is really right and what is wrong"?
By "time" I mean less than a generation. The problem solves itself either by force (revolution) or by simply dying off. If something is broken it cannot sustain itself and will fall apart. Remember that every downfall in history has been proceeded by a period of decadence. Since you are from Australia, I read this a while ago: pregnant men
https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CEwQFjAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fau.ibtimes.com%2Fmore-50-australian-men-got-pregnant-gave-birth-babies-2013-advocate-predicts-trend-last-1389830&ei=Bj4tVcbDOIL5aJmqgfgG&usg=AFQjCNHGQsJ7S5MRajtwi6XkAUCezCRMTA&bvm=bv.90790515,d.d2s

To summarise, women who have undergone sex-change but kept their reproductive organs are giving birth to children. How deviated will that generation be? Drinking and smoking are already bad enough, but now we are letting women who are pumped up with artificial hormones carry out children? It does not matter whether we think this is right or wrong, society will either put a stop to this abomination or go under. I only feel bad for the children who are being born into such conditions, they will get hit hardest even though they are not responsible for anything.
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htown1980: So if time proves what is really right or wrong, you must be accepting that there is a period, before time has worked its magic, that the norm is wrong, but still is the norm? So a norm isn't always just a norm, it can also be right or wrong (or as you have shown neutral), right?

Putting to one side the whole "marriage has been around for millennia" thing (not in most countries, it hasn't - certainly not in mine), how do you think "time proves what is really right and what is wrong"? It just happens? You don't think people get involved at all?

How do you think time ended slavery? That had actually been around for millennia. That was the norm. Do you think people wanted to change that thing that had been working for millennia? Would you have called BS on them?

What if, in relation to gay marriage, we are at that time that you have identified, where it is currently the norm not to permit it, but where time is about to prove "what is really right and what is wrong"?
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HiPhish: By "time" I mean less than a generation. The problem solves itself either by force (revolution) or by simply dying off. If something is broken it cannot sustain itself and will fall apart. Remember that every downfall in history has been proceeded by a period of decadence. Since you are from Australia, I read this a while ago: pregnant men
https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CEwQFjAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fau.ibtimes.com%2Fmore-50-australian-men-got-pregnant-gave-birth-babies-2013-advocate-predicts-trend-last-1389830&ei=Bj4tVcbDOIL5aJmqgfgG&usg=AFQjCNHGQsJ7S5MRajtwi6XkAUCezCRMTA&bvm=bv.90790515,d.d2s

To summarise, women who have undergone sex-change but kept their reproductive organs are giving birth to children. How deviated will that generation be? Drinking and smoking are already bad enough, but now we are letting women who are pumped up with artificial hormones carry out children? It does not matter whether we think this is right or wrong, society will either put a stop to this abomination or go under. I only feel bad for the children who are being born into such conditions, they will get hit hardest even though they are not responsible for anything.
This is the most irresponsible and degenerate thing I've read in a while.
Seriously, if they still can become pregnant, calling them officially men is stupid on so many levels and the long term problems those children (that have been bombarded with artificial hormones) will have are hard to imagine, I suppose. Does anyone know if those children tend to have unusual gene-defects too?
Post edited April 14, 2015 by Klumpen0815
turns out anitas positive character did not so much for the games attention

http://steamcharts.com/app/204060#1m
video commenting on it
Post edited April 15, 2015 by dragonbeast
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HiPhish: Such a country would be unsustainable, so it's not necessary to judge whether it is wrong or right. Time always proves what is really right and what is wrong. So if someone wants to change something that has been working for millennia I call BS on it.
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htown1980: So if time proves what is really right or wrong, you must be accepting that there is a period, before time has worked its magic, that the norm is wrong, but still is the norm? So a norm isn't always just a norm, it can also be right or wrong (or as you have shown neutral), right?

Putting to one side the whole "marriage has been around for millennia" thing (not in most countries, it hasn't - certainly not in mine), how do you think "time proves what is really right and what is wrong"? It just happens? You don't think people get involved at all?

How do you think time ended slavery? That had actually been around for millennia. That was the norm. Do you think people wanted to change that thing that had been working for millennia? Would you have called BS on them?

What if, in relation to gay marriage, we are at that time that you have identified, where it is currently the norm not to permit it, but where time is about to prove "what is really right and what is wrong"?
Technological advancement is a pretty neat rebuttal of "IT'S BEEN WORKING FINE TILL NOW, WHY CHANGE IT?" arguments.

Oh, and as for marriage and the religious/legal binding of two (or more?) people...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_same-sex_unions
Funny how that actually has a history that does not demonstrate exclusivity, right?


As an aside, Gamergate reminds me of this:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xz8pyd
(In the sense that it started 'cause some bloke shot an ostrich, and that it was too much effort not to have a war.)

... also I'm not sure what marriage equality has to do with Gamergate.
But oh well.
Apparently them pesky SJWs are ruining marriage AND videogames. Somehow.
They must be very busy.
Related to the above:

Trigger alert Sargon :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eQW-NvtAEs&feature=youtu.be&t=20m7s

Kinda crazy using numbers and facts....
@SusurrusParadox

Thanks to the tiny gods of GOG for their forum space "pretty neat" features and my almighty Biblical GOD Holy and sound reason, I can bury your immoral claims out of my sight, out of my mind, with a press of my finger... Amen.
Post edited April 15, 2015 by koima57
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RWarehall: Related to the above:

Trigger alert Sargon :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eQW-NvtAEs&feature=youtu.be&t=20m7s

Kinda crazy using numbers and facts....
Butbutbut... I thought they are all gamers trying to improve their hobby and not just some professional outside complainers! xD
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Gamergate argument history:

Anita Sarkeesian is making a video series about tropes vs. women in video games.

You fucking greedy jewish slut charlatan, I'm coming to your house to rape you with a flagpole! We didn't say that! It wasn't us! This is not gamergate! We didn't harrass the ugly shithead!

We could, you know, talk about the issues instead, no?

But these games have soooo many positive female characters!

No they don't, but anyway, you can't identify tropes VERSUS women if you focus at the few positive examples.

This is cherry picking! She wants to censor our games! She doesn't even like games!

No, she enjoys games just like you do. She just points at aspects she finds problematic in games she possibly loves while explicitly saying again and again that there is nothing wrong with enjoying these games. For example, she talks about binge playing the Zelda series on the Idle Thumbs podcast. Yes, Zelda. Huge fan. Despite damsel and all.

But where are the positive examples?

There's supposedly a video coming up more at the end of the series that talks about positive examples exclusively. It's in the Kickstarter, right there, since 2012.

That isn't enough! We can't know whether she really REALLY likes games!

Sarkeesian's 'gamer cred' has never been that relevant anyway.

Here! Look at this reaxxion article! She's getting loads of money from Intel now!

And, here, look at the actual data in the PDF reaxxion "analyses". She's announcing several new projects, among them an entire new SERIES of positive female character portrayals in video games. Makes sense to make that a separate series for above reasons...

OMG look at this new video! The positive character she talks about doesn't even LOOK like a woman and hardly anyone ever CALLS her a woman! Man, Sarkeesian really sucks at feminism!

So now you got what you asked for, but you're too stupid to understand it? Oh-ka-hay.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalso, her promotion didn't even boost sales!

Wait, who the what now? Promotion?

The 'success' of Sarkeesian's previous series was never measured in the inexistant damage she does to the year old games she criticises, but when she gives positive examples, suddenly the effect on sales of a four year old small indie game is supposedly relevant.

The first positive character video was a really great choice. I couldn't have been less satisfied with Sword & Sworcery's game mechanics, yet the merits for the feminist idea of equality are obvious. It's completely irrelevant to the story that the hero of the game is a woman. The sprite has no gender signifiers and no grand revelation of the fact is taking place. There's hardly any background to the character. There's no glorification of the woman taking up the heroic task, it just happens. There is no overt 'political' message in the game, nothing is shoved in anyone's face. It is only just a casual display of diversity as normality — an idea e.g. BioWare still struggles with a bit.

For me, this video strengthens her often repeated, but seldom understood point that what she's after is just a teensy bit of balance.
Post edited April 16, 2015 by Vainamoinen
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Vainamoinen: snip
We talk about the issues and are called misogynists for disagreeing your issues are universal objective issues... did you notice my anecdote about the Chinese general and the death penalty for arriving late? Not sure it was in this thread...

Anyway, is it fair to say you consider Anita the lynchpin of Gamergate controversy? You are eliding over all the aspects related to gaming journalism... or in other words, you seem to implicitly be denying that GG is about what GG folks say it is about. Is that good faith argumentation? Or is it strawmanning? Does it contribute to radicalized opposition? Or is it "balanced"?

And will you tell me I'm derailing? :)
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Who called you misogynist? I didn't.
Who called the interpretation of a narrative medium objective? That's the last thing I would ever do.
Wo called those interpretations universal? That's the second to last thing I would ever do.

Sarkeesian's series wasn't destined to be "lynchpin" or starting point of the controversy until the people now known as gaters leapt on their own hype train. She is exactly as relevant in this discussion as gaters have made her and still make her to be. I see her videos as a necessarily subjective, necessarily imperfect complement to an extremely necessary discussion. When Sarkeesian has a new video up, it gets retweeted a few times by stated fans, but the people who are actually pushing them are the Thunderfoots and Amazing Atheists and the Sargon of Akkads out there. The Gaters will bring her back to this thread again and again.

Case in point: That 'new' video has been around for more than two weeks now. I first talked about it in other forums on April 1st. I thought, well, should I bring that up in the GOG forums as well? Nah, they won't understand it anyway. Then the gamergate videos mentioned above brought it to the gaters' attention with some delay, and, wam, only that brought it back in this thread with statements from people who may not even have watched the gater videos about the feminist frequency video in full.

No mention of the video content of course. But you have your ready made kindergarten interpretation of that from e.g. the Amazing Atheist as well, so no need to set your ol' brain wheels in motion.

TL;DR: If you don't want to talk about Anita Sarkeesian in gamergate, I suggest you don't talk about Anita Sarkeesian in gamergate. It's that easy, you just know it is.

As to gamergate's 'true topic', we've been there, and that topic is actually closed, nailed down, put in a coffin and buried twenty feet in solid earth, and has been for six months now.

The few issues that have to do with journalism have been brought up retroactively in connection to people gamergate agitators didn't like in the first place. An embarrassing, pitifully low number of these complaints have actually hit the mark in an industry that would have absolutely deserved an honest investigation of corruption and conflation. And that corruption necessarily creeps in from where the money is, from the AAA industry, from AAA publishers and from AAA game developers. Not from the side of dirt poor video game hobbyists who had hoped in vain to make a living by writing about their favorite medium. And while that actual corruption keeps fucking game enthusiasts in the ass while drawing more money and power to companies like Valve or Electronic Arts, gamergate focuses on the 'corruption' supposedly coming from the utterly powerless – video game critics of all sorts, indie developers, indie conventions, all only made relevant by continuously devising "SJW" conspiracy theories as to their influence on an industry that gives a shit about them.

God would that be great if we actually addressed the problems in the industry one day, if there's still time to do anything. But whatever the topic of gamergate may be, this has nothing at all to do with it.

What gamergate actually is about? It's about a cardboard enemy concept, the "SJW", cut out of a sugary cereal box by right-handed gators with leftie scissors before leaving for kindergarten, to be stuck at the end of a stick and paraded around as a scarecrow for the other kids. I certainly haven't seen much else in here for 143 pages.
Post edited April 16, 2015 by Vainamoinen
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Vainamoinen: Who called you misogynist? I didn't.
Who called the interpretation of a narrative medium objective? That's the last thing I would ever do.
Wo called those interpretations universal? That's the second to last thing I would ever do.

Sarkeesian's series wasn't destined to be "lynchpin" or starting point of the controversy until the people now known as gaters leapt on their own hype train. She is exactly as relevant in this discussion as gaters have made her and still make her to be. I see her videos as a necessarily subjective, necessarily imperfect complement to an extremely necessary discussion. When Sarkeesian has a new video up, it gets retweeted a few times by stated fans, but the people who are actually pushing them are the Thunderfoots and Amazing Atheists and the Sargon of Akkads out there. The Gaters will bring her back to this thread again and again.

Case in point: That 'new' video has been around for more than two weeks now. I first talked about it in other forums on April 1st. I thought, well, should I bring that up in the GOG forums as well? Nah, they won't understand it anyway. Then the gamergate videos mentioned above brought it to the gaters' attention with some delay, and, wam, only that brought it back in this thread with statements from people who may not even have watched the gater videos about the feminist frequency video in full.

No mention of the video content of course. But you have your ready made kindergarten interpretation of that from e.g. the Amazing Atheist as well, so no need to set your ol' brain wheels in motion.

TL;DR: If you don't want to talk about Anita Sarkeesian in gamergate, I suggest you don't talk about Anita Sarkeesian in gamergate. It's that easy, you just know it is.

As to gamergate's 'true topic', we've been there, and that topic is actually closed, nailed down, put in a coffin and buried twenty feet in solid earth, and has been for six months now.

The few issues that have to do with journalism have been brought up retroactively in connection to people gamergate agitators didn't like in the first place. An embarrassing, pitifully low number of these complaints have actually hit the mark in an industry that would have absolutely deserved an honest investigation of corruption and conflation. And that corruption necessarily creeps in from where the money is, from the AAA industry, from AAA publishers and from AAA game developers. Not from the side of dirt poor video game hobbyists who had hoped in vain to make a living by writing about their favorite medium. And while that actual corruption keeps fucking game enthusiasts in the ass while drawing more money and power to companies like Valve or Electronic Arts, gamergate focuses on the 'corruption' supposedly coming from the utterly powerless – video game critics of all sorts, indie developers, indie conventions, all only made relevant by continuously devising "SJW" conspiracy theories as to their influence on an industry that gives a shit about them.

God would that be great if we actually addressed the problems in the industry one day, if there's still time to do anything. But whatever the topic of gamergate may be, this has nothing at all to do with it.

What gamergate actually is about? It's about a cardboard enemy concept, the "SJW", cut out of a sugary cereal box by right-handed gators with leftie scissors before leaving for kindergarten, to be stuck at the end of a stick and paraded around as a scarecrow for the other kids. I certainly haven't seen much else in here for 143 pages.
TL;DR. What goes around comes around.
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Vainamoinen: What gamergate actually is about? It's about a cardboard enemy concept, the "SJW", cut out of a sugary cereal box by right-handed gators with leftie scissors before leaving for kindergarten, to be stuck at the end of a stick and paraded around as a scarecrow for the other kids. I certainly haven't seen much else in here for 143 pages.
You mean beside the modern leftists with crazy conspiracy theories about some shady patriarchy that are holding some symbolic puppet with a hashtag "gamergate" printed on in front of everyones nose attached to a long stick while saying "look at the misogyny, don't believe anything those people say, burn them all to the ground!" ?
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Vainamoinen: What gamergate actually is about? It's about a cardboard enemy concept, the "SJW", cut out of a sugary cereal box by right-handed gators with leftie scissors before leaving for kindergarten, to be stuck at the end of a stick and paraded around as a scarecrow for the other kids. I certainly haven't seen much else in here for 143 pages.
i have witnessed the opposite a lot more.
gamergate has been used as a fear mongering scare tactic from the start. To show yet again "bohoo gamers are monsters cry"

that the actions are seen as more right is as far as i can see because the attack mainly comes from the left, so standing up makes you right winged according to people like you.

when the attacks came from the right in the past, we were all seen as no more than leftists.

People have looked into it and it turned out far from the entirety of GG is right winged//extreme right winged

And the complaints about the industry have been going on for ages.

More were just added

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Vainamoinen: all only made relevant by continuously devising "SJW" conspiracy theories as to their influence on an industry that gives a shit about them.
yeah and the antis never make conspiracy theories right? RIGHT?

like "there are only males and sockpuppet accounts in gg" "gg has the main task of making sure there are no more girls playing games" "gamergate was started in fear of Hillary Clintin running for president"

but of course, gg is the cruel side.
The Antis, harresment, deaththreats, calls to assault, mutilation and straight up genocides never happened. Oh and neither was Zoe Quinn involved with a site which focussed on bullying and doxxing (helldump) nooooo shes only been a victim, never ever the aggressor. Neither hasanyone from the antis bullied or doxxed. Antis are only victims, anyone in GG is a misogynist, rape approving harassing shitlord monster.

And if i were you, i'd watch this sargon video .
Post edited April 16, 2015 by dragonbeast