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General discussionThe #Gamergate news thread(8424 posts) (8424 posts) 
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This is my favourite topic
Posted March 17, 2015
low rated
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Shadowstalker16: @htown1980: its not enough to say its obvious when a journalist is being subjective. Its should be labelled. Period. Its through this kind of limboing under and tap dancing around the rules that this thing happened in the first place. If its something that is admittedly subjective; it doesn't take much for the writer to write down that extra disclaimer as well. One must not forget that most game journalists do critical work (its like 40% reporting on news and 60% reviewing from most; I think) and hence; as a critic in addition to being a journalist; they owe it to their consumer (as any critic does) to clearly disclose any bias they might have.
@anti #ggers: I menationed this before but didn't get a reply. I don't know whether its because you accept and are reluctant to show it; or don't have any argument to contradict it (which is the same as the first then) but here it is again:

The fact that people can bash a game with a linear story because it doesn't have a female protagonist is ludicrous. Al linear story in a game means THE CHARACTER HAVE SET PERSONALITIES AND GENDERS. Its like making a Sherlock Holmes game and giving the player an option to choose between a male and female Holmes. And since the characters already have set personalities; there is equal detachment for everyone from the character because a persons' personality is more likely to resonate or not resonate than a stupid factor like gender. Here; a very sensitive and empathetic male player may find it more difficult to relate to Trevor than an non-empathetic female player. You are basically taking a part of what makes us who we are (taking ONE thing out of empathy; sympathy; world views; experiences; gender etc) and saying that one factor alone will ruin the experience for female players. This is ludicrous; as its implying females have nothing more to them than their gender.

PS; can we stop with the downrate thing? I'm not asking because I was downrated. I wasn't. People here; especially those with 1000+rep achieved that through dedication to DRM-free and to the GOG community. Lets not destroy it with anything that isn't even unique to GOG yes? Best for both sides.
I think its impractical to expect a journalist to label when they are being subjective. The end result would be a disclaimer published before every story/review/article that it is subjective or may contain statements which are subjective. I think its just far too obvious. I have this image in my head of a disclaimer like:

"This review contains the subjective opinion of the author on the gameplay, story, graphics, music and player interactions of this game. Beware: You may have different opinions from the author about those things."

I don't think they do owe it to consumers to disclose their bias. One of the wonderful things about bias, is that most of the time you don't even know you have it. It is generally hard to disclose something you don't even know about.

We did media studies in high school. May be its an educational thing. I suspect that if people need to be told when someone is being subjective and when someone is being objective, they might struggle in everyday society.

Regarding the male character/female character issue, I think the criticism isn't so much that a game as a male lead character, but rather that a game has another male lead character. I can't speak for others, but my understanding of the complaint, when made, is that the lead character is often the same as every other lead character (speaking from the perspective of someone who has been playing video games for over 30 years, I can see why that would be said). I don't mind when a lead character is male but I like some variety.

On a personal level, I do find it strange when I play a straight female character and men start hitting on her. I imagine some women would find that strange as well. I do often play chicks but I either stay away from romance or am gay when the option presents itself. I think it would be annoying if I had to do that more often because there were no male options in video games.

I personally love the downrating thing. I think it speaks volumes for the people doing it. The only negative about it from my perspective is that it will be a little longer til my next giveaway.
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htown1980: I think you'll find Klumpen didn't say there was a huge ethical difference, just a huge difference. As I said, there is no "ethical difference" between the two statements whatsoever.
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Klumpen0815: Imho it's a big ethical difference too.
Method A sets the own opinion so far above every other, that it defines itself as the ultimate truth.
This is what Vaina is doing all the time, everyone who disaggrees there is just a conservative/plutocrat/*insert hate filled term of current agenda here*. There is nothing to gain here, it is simply destructive, but people like the leaders of certain hate movements need such a mindset in their followers to avoid scrutinising.

Method B emphasizes, that we are all on the same level, even if the opinions are far apart.
This way misunderstandings and doubtful jugdement via prejudice, lack of information or disiformation can be solved.
Sure, its an argumentative arguing style and one that doesn't do a great job of convincing others to change their views (much like every argument on the internet), but I disagree that one is more unethical than the other.

I'm not going to go back to the gamers are dead articles but I suspect they contained both examples you gave. I don't know that any #gg'ers said that one insult was better than the other.
Post edited March 17, 2015 by htown1980
Posted March 17, 2015
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Shadowstalker16: @htown1980: its not enough to say its obvious when a journalist is being subjective. Its should be labelled. Period. Its through this kind of limboing under and tap dancing around the rules that this thing happened in the first place. If its something that is admittedly subjective; it doesn't take much for the writer to write down that extra disclaimer as well. One must not forget that most game journalists do critical work (its like 40% reporting on news and 60% reviewing from most; I think) and hence; as a critic in addition to being a journalist; they owe it to their consumer (as any critic does) to clearly disclose any bias they might have.
@anti #ggers: I menationed this before but didn't get a reply. I don't know whether its because you accept and are reluctant to show it; or don't have any argument to contradict it (which is the same as the first then) but here it is again:

The fact that people can bash a game with a linear story because it doesn't have a female protagonist is ludicrous. Al linear story in a game means THE CHARACTER HAVE SET PERSONALITIES AND GENDERS. Its like making a Sherlock Holmes game and giving the player an option to choose between a male and female Holmes. And since the characters already have set personalities; there is equal detachment for everyone from the character because a persons' personality is more likely to resonate or not resonate than a stupid factor like gender. Here; a very sensitive and empathetic male player may find it more difficult to relate to Trevor than an non-empathetic female player. You are basically taking a part of what makes us who we are (taking ONE thing out of empathy; sympathy; world views; experiences; gender etc) and saying that one factor alone will ruin the experience for female players. This is ludicrous; as its implying females have nothing more to them than their gender.

PS; can we stop with the downrate thing? I'm not asking because I was downrated. I wasn't. People here; especially those with 1000+rep achieved that through dedication to DRM-free and to the GOG community. Lets not destroy it with anything that isn't even unique to GOG yes? Best for both sides.
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htown1980: I think its impractical to expect a journalist to label when they are being subjective. The end result would be a disclaimer published before every story/review/article that it is subjective or may contain statements which are subjective. I think its just far too obvious. I have this image in my head of a disclaimer like:

"This review contains the subjective opinion of the author on the gameplay, story, graphics, music and player interactions of this game. Beware: You may have different opinions from the author about those things."

I don't think they do owe it to consumers to disclose their bias. One of the wonderful things about bias, is that most of the time you don't even know you have it. It is generally hard to disclose something you don't even know about.

We did media studies in high school. May be its an educational thing. I suspect that if people need to be told when someone is being subjective and when someone is being objective, they might struggle in everyday society.

Regarding the male character/female character issue, I think the criticism isn't so much that a game as a male lead character, but rather that a game has another male lead character. I can't speak for others, but my understanding of the complaint, when made, is that the lead character is often the same as every other lead character (speaking from the perspective of someone who has been playing video games for over 30 years, I can see why that would be said). I don't mind when a lead character is male but I like some variety.

On a personal level, I do find it strange when I play a straight female character and men start hitting on her. I imagine some women would find that strange as well. I do often play chicks but I either stay away from romance or am gay when the option presents itself. I think it would be annoying if I had to do that more often because there were no male options in video games.

I personally love the downrating thing. I think it speaks volumes for the people doing it. The only negative about it from my perspective is that it will be a little longer til my next giveaway.
avatar
Klumpen0815: Imho it's a big ethical difference too.
Method A sets the own opinion so far above every other, that it defines itself as the ultimate truth.
This is what Vaina is doing all the time, everyone who disaggrees there is just a conservative/plutocrat/*insert hate filled term of current agenda here*. There is nothing to gain here, it is simply destructive, but people like the leaders of certain hate movements need such a mindset in their followers to avoid scrutinising.

Method B emphasizes, that we are all on the same level, even if the opinions are far apart.
This way misunderstandings and doubtful jugdement via prejudice, lack of information or disiformation can be solved.
avatar
htown1980: Sure, its an argumentative arguing style and one that doesn't do a great job of convincing others to change their views (much like every argument on the internet), but I disagree that one is more unethical than the other.

I'm not going to go back to the gamers are dead articles but I suspect they contained both examples you gave. I don't know that any #gg'ers said that one insult was better than the other.
Are you capable of actually just enjoying anything in life? Does every single moment, object, or belief have to be over-analyzed down to the last detail? See, that's why GG is going for the gold and the SJW wrecking crew is going to lose that championship belt. Gamers are opposed to this manipulative, condescending attempt at controlling and/or destroying their hobby. That makes SJW/feminism to be the heels in this match. They've pissed off the crowd because they care about shit that most people generally don't, and they've become arrogant and self-justified due to their lofty 'institutional' power structure.

Gamers want to one thing... an entertaining combination of guns/beer/pussy. If their barn door slides the other way then it's swords/wine/cock. It's supposed to be FUN. A HOBBY. Your brain is fucked because of those 'media studies' you had back in school. They've lifted the wool over your eyes up just long enough to be able to comprehend a blue sky and white fluffy clouds. Then they slammed that wool right back down and asked you to describe what it was you saw (and then judged and categorized you for your answer). You suffer from analysis paralysis. That is my professional diagnosis, friend.

You need to re-learn how to have FUN. Go try it. Practice makes perfect.
Posted March 17, 2015
low rated
avatar
Emob78: Are you capable of actually just enjoying anything in life? Does every single moment, object, or belief have to be over-analyzed down to the last detail? See, that's why GG is going for the gold and the SJW wrecking crew is going to lose that championship belt. Gamers are opposed to this manipulative, condescending attempt at controlling and/or destroying their hobby. That makes SJW/feminism to be the heels in this match. They've pissed off the crowd because they care about shit that most people generally don't, and they've become arrogant and self-justified due to their lofty 'institutional' power structure.
Does everyone have to confirm to your view on things? Can people not enjoy intellectual discussions? Can people not enjoy analysing things, discussing things, debating things? Does everything have to be dumbed down?

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Emob78: Gamers want to one thing... an entertaining combination of guns/beer/pussy. If their barn door slides the other way then it's swords/wine/cock.
This really is a wonderful example of a major problem with a part of pro-ggers. Gamers are not one homogeneous group who all want one thing (I pause to note your one thing is actually 6 things...). We all want different things. Some one what you have suggested, others don't. Some want what you have suggested sometimes but not at other times.

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Emob78: It's supposed to be FUN. A HOBBY. Your brain is fucked because of those 'media studies' you had back in school. They've lifted the wool over your eyes up just long enough to be able to comprehend a blue sky and white fluffy clouds. Then they slammed that wool right back down and asked you to describe what it was you saw (and then judged and categorized you for your answer). You suffer from analysis paralysis. That is my professional diagnosis, friend.

You need to re-learn how to have FUN. Go try it. Practice makes perfect.
No, it is supposed to be whatever you like. It can be a hobby. It can be a job. It can be a passion. It can be art. Open your mind, friend, expand your horizons, think outside the box, experience life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted March 17, 2015
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Emob78: Are you capable of actually just enjoying anything in life? Does every single moment, object, or belief have to be over-analyzed down to the last detail? See, that's why GG is going for the gold and the SJW wrecking crew is going to lose that championship belt. Gamers are opposed to this manipulative, condescending attempt at controlling and/or destroying their hobby. That makes SJW/feminism to be the heels in this match. They've pissed off the crowd because they care about shit that most people generally don't, and they've become arrogant and self-justified due to their lofty 'institutional' power structure.
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htown1980: Does everyone have to confirm to your view on things? Can people not enjoy intellectual discussions? Can people not enjoy analysing things, discussing things, debating things? Does everything have to be dumbed down?

avatar
Emob78: Gamers want to one thing... an entertaining combination of guns/beer/pussy. If their barn door slides the other way then it's swords/wine/cock.
avatar
htown1980: This really is a wonderful example of a major problem with a part of pro-ggers. Gamers are not one homogeneous group who all want one thing (I pause to note your one thing is actually 6 things...). We all want different things. Some one what you have suggested, others don't. Some want what you have suggested sometimes but not at other times.

avatar
Emob78: It's supposed to be FUN. A HOBBY. Your brain is fucked because of those 'media studies' you had back in school. They've lifted the wool over your eyes up just long enough to be able to comprehend a blue sky and white fluffy clouds. Then they slammed that wool right back down and asked you to describe what it was you saw (and then judged and categorized you for your answer). You suffer from analysis paralysis. That is my professional diagnosis, friend.

You need to re-learn how to have FUN. Go try it. Practice makes perfect.
avatar
htown1980: No, it is supposed to be whatever you like. It can be a hobby. It can be a job. It can be a passion. It can be art. Open your mind, friend, expand your horizons, think outside the box, experience life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
People can debate and critique things all they want. I totally support that. Discussion often leads to hearing ideas or information you were at one time ignorant of. That's part of learning. Fine. But when industry heads and over-rated blogger/activists go to conferences or write papers on why I need to have my hobby changed because of X reasons, I get a little hot over that. Shit, we totally let the ESRB battle go away. Some people, myself included, think that's even going too far, and that's old shit now. Some of these writers and industry heads think that sex and violence in video games is a bad thing, whether it be from the extreme left or right, and they want to manipulate and/or change the whole fucking thing and put it in sync with their myopic, narrow world view. That's not ok with me, and I would hope that gamers would see it the same way. Feminists wanting to remove tits and ass from video games is no different than when religious nuts and politicians wanted to ban and censor video games because of Doom and Duke Nuke 'Em. It's the same thing, just delivered in a slightly different package.

You want to talk about games? Fine. But then don't support people who want to wreck this hobby and tell me that it's not happening simply because you personally don't believe it is. The SJW/feminist brigade have a clear direction they are going, and it's not in my mind an open and level playing field where we all just get together and talk about games. If that's truly all it was, then this controversy wouldn't exist. Talk is cheap, and this isn't a cheap controversy.
Posted March 17, 2015
low rated
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noncompliantgame: Brace yourselves gamers and prepare for a full tilt wave of abuse to hit you. The lies and fascist propaganda are about to be unleashed in the form of GTFO: The Movie. A "documentary" (yeah right) designed to destroy your self-esteem as both a human being and a gamer.

The hate-piece, directed by Shannon Sun-Higginson and funded by her acolytes via kickstarter is said to be a series of cherry picked annecdotal stories of women claiming harassment and abuse for being female gamers. How original!

GTFO premiered March 14 at this year’s South by Southwest film festival, held March 13-22 in Austin,Texas. If you wish to see it, then the privalege will cost you between $695 to $1745.

Somebody hold me back. I can't wait! X-D
Well, er... hold the bus, are you REALLY denying that online gaming communities can be nasty, abusive places? I'm a straight white male but one of the reasons I stay he hell away from online gaming is that I don't want to have some 12 year old screaming 'fucktard' at me!
I mean, I don't think many of them are GENUINELY misogynistic, homophobic or racist - they just use any angle they can on you to offend and be-little as much as they can, so maybe there IS some focusing on one small part of a bigger problem because of a certain agenda but still - bigger problem, soft target!
Again (hopefully) mostly kidiots being kidiots but you DO hear of people going around other peoples houses and killing them because they tea-bagged them on-line and such!
Posted March 17, 2015
Somehow related:
https://trac.videolan.org/vlc/ticket/13320

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HiPhish: And how come i had never heard of /v/ the musical? Those guys are fantastic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcebgKvAoh0
lol

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Fever_Discordia: Well, er... hold the bus, are you REALLY denying that online gaming communities can be nasty, abusive places? I'm a straight white male but one of the reasons I stay he hell away from online gaming is that I don't want to have some 12 year old screaming 'fucktard' at me!
I mean, I don't think many of them are GENUINELY misogynistic, homophobic or racist - they just use any angle they can on you to offend and be-little as much as they can, so maybe there IS some focusing on one small part of a bigger problem because of a certain agenda but still - bigger problem, soft target!
Again (hopefully) mostly kidiots being kidiots but you DO hear of people going around other peoples houses and killing them because they tea-bagged them on-line and such!
The problem with that is, that it's about women being harrassed as if it would be somehow gender specific while absolutely everybody gets trolled in the web as you said.

It's like saying: "Women are prone to car accidents, this is misogyny!".
Yeah well.... everybody is prone to car accidents, this is reality.

The problem I always have with all this is the constant sexism against men, as if it would be no problem when they are harrassed or threatened (which they are rather used to since it's so common). They don't make such a fuss about some victim complex and either rant back or go elsewhere, end of story.

All this reminds me of the debate about banning "killer games" in Germany, the usual media outlets say:
"Boys who went on a killing spree played first person shooters and metal and goth music was found in their rooms, those must be the cause"

Yeah well, nearly every teenager has and all teenagers on killing sprees ate bread: Ban bread!
Post edited March 17, 2015 by Klumpen0815
Posted March 17, 2015
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Emob78: Are you capable of actually just enjoying anything in life? Does every single moment, object, or belief have to be over-analyzed down to the last detail? See, that's why GG is going for the gold and the SJW wrecking crew is going to lose that championship belt. Gamers are opposed to this manipulative, condescending attempt at controlling and/or destroying their hobby. That makes SJW/feminism to be the heels in this match. They've pissed off the crowd because they care about shit that most people generally don't, and they've become arrogant and self-justified due to their lofty 'institutional' power structure.
avatar
htown1980: Does everyone have to confirm to your view on things? Can people not enjoy intellectual discussions? Can people not enjoy analysing things, discussing things, debating things? Does everything have to be dumbed down?

avatar
Emob78: Gamers want to one thing... an entertaining combination of guns/beer/pussy. If their barn door slides the other way then it's swords/wine/cock.
avatar
htown1980: This really is a wonderful example of a major problem with a part of pro-ggers. Gamers are not one homogeneous group who all want one thing (I pause to note your one thing is actually 6 things...). We all want different things. Some one what you have suggested, others don't. Some want what you have suggested sometimes but not at other times.

avatar
Emob78: It's supposed to be FUN. A HOBBY. Your brain is fucked because of those 'media studies' you had back in school. They've lifted the wool over your eyes up just long enough to be able to comprehend a blue sky and white fluffy clouds. Then they slammed that wool right back down and asked you to describe what it was you saw (and then judged and categorized you for your answer). You suffer from analysis paralysis. That is my professional diagnosis, friend.

You need to re-learn how to have FUN. Go try it. Practice makes perfect.
avatar
htown1980: No, it is supposed to be whatever you like. It can be a hobby. It can be a job. It can be a passion. It can be art. Open your mind, friend, expand your horizons, think outside the box, experience life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Htown, I think you're forgetting one little detail. And that is these are video games & yes they should be first & foremost entertainment IE "Fun"

but "fun" is many different things to different people whether it be commanding a mighty space fleet or a single starfighter, racing a car, fighting for your life in a fantasy realm.

but that does mean one may not learn something at the same time & this is where IMO the "Progressive" devs don't understand something. If they want to lead this industry into a new way of doing things they need to show both us the gamers & other devs Why it's better their way.

Games as art:

Question: Would you say ART at it's core is about emotion? because to me that's what it's about.

recently I started re-playing Homeworld (1999) & on an early part I was tasked with saving some Cryotrays. Having been so long since I've played it before & when the first tray got loaded I treated the rest with the reverence of a funeral procession because at that time the trays weren't just flat rectangles or trays but each one a 100,000 people, Men women & children. Making me connect to something far deeper than I expected. To me that's art in a video game.

& I think this highlights what I think of as Video games Art
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEs8t-lZe4M
Post edited March 17, 2015 by Rusty_Gunn
Posted March 17, 2015
low rated
avatar
Emob78: People can debate and critique things all they want. I totally support that. Discussion often leads to hearing ideas or information you were at one time ignorant of. That's part of learning. Fine. But when industry heads and over-rated blogger/activists go to conferences or write papers on why I need to have my hobby changed because of X reasons, I get a little hot over that. Shit, we totally let the ESRB battle go away. Some people, myself included, think that's even going too far, and that's old shit now. Some of these writers and industry heads think that sex and violence in video games is a bad thing, whether it be from the extreme left or right, and they want to manipulate and/or change the whole fucking thing and put it in sync with their myopic, narrow world view. That's not ok with me, and I would hope that gamers would see it the same way. Feminists wanting to remove tits and ass from video games is no different than when religious nuts and politicians wanted to ban and censor video games because of Doom and Duke Nuke 'Em. It's the same thing, just delivered in a slightly different package.

You want to talk about games? Fine. But then don't support people who want to wreck this hobby and tell me that it's not happening simply because you personally don't believe it is. The SJW/feminist brigade have a clear direction they are going, and it's not in my mind an open and level playing field where we all just get together and talk about games. If that's truly all it was, then this controversy wouldn't exist. Talk is cheap, and this isn't a cheap controversy.
I didn't say SJW/feminists aren't wrecking your hobby. I can see you are getting worked up about this so I have no doubt that they are. They aren't wrecking my hobby, however. I enjoy games more now than I did 30 years ago.

My only point is that, a significant part of #gg is about anti-SJW and anti-feminism, not about journalistic integrity. I don't have a problem with that. #gg can be against feminism and SJWs (whether its journalists, developers, critics, etc) , I just don't like when #gg pretend their anti-feminism/SJWism is actually a call for journalistic integrity.


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Rusty_Gunn: Htown, I think you're forgetting one little detail. And that is these are video games & yes they should be first & foremost entertainment IE "Fun"

but "fun" is many different things to different people whether it be commanding a mighty space fleet or a single starfighter, racing a car, fighting for your life in a fantasy realm.

but that does mean one may not learn something at the same time & this is where IMO the "Progressive" devs don't understand something. If they want to lead this industry into a new way of doing things they need to show both us the gamers & other devs Why it's better their way.

Games as art:

Question: Would you say ART at it's core is about emotion? because to me that's what it's about.

recently I started re-playing Homeworld (1999) & on an early part I was tasked with saving some Cryotrays. Having been so long since I've played it before & when the first tray got loaded I treated the rest with the reverence of a funeral procession because at that time the trays weren't just flat rectangles or trays but each one a 100,000 people, Men women & children. Making me connect to something far deeper than I expected. To me that's art in a video game.

& I think this highlights what I think of as Video games Art
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEs8t-lZe4M
I don't agree video games should be first and foremost fun. They can be whatever anyone wants. Some people want to have fun playing games, some people don't. I have heard many people say "This War of Mine" was not fun, Totalbiscuit being one such person.

Personally, I want to play entertaining games. Usually they are also fun, sometimes they are not. I don't begrudge others the right to make or play or advocate for games that I don't think are fun.

I don't think "progressive" devs should try to lead the industry anywhere. They should just make whatever games they want and if people buy them, good for them. If people like yourself think they are boring or not fun, then you can not buy them and critique them if you wish. The "regressive" devs can keep making whatever games they like as well and if SJWs or feminists think they are no good, they can not buy them and critique them as well. The industry can lead itself.

What is art? Damn, hard question. I don't know the answer but I wouldn't say you are wrong. I think your experience with Homeworld is perfectly valid.

Again, this is a great debate, and if that is what #gg is about, that's all well and good, but its got nothing to do with ethics in games journalism.
Post edited March 17, 2015 by htown1980
Posted March 17, 2015
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htown1980: My only point is that, a significant part of #gg is about anti-SJW and anti-feminism, not about journalistic integrity. I don't have a problem with that. #gg can be against feminism and SJWs (whether its journalists, developers, critics, etc) , I just don't like when #gg pretend their anti-feminism/SJWism is actually a call for journalistic integrity.
A significant part? No. The antis like to claim this, but it's bullshit.

Of course there are people using #gg for stuff that it's not supposed to stand for, but guess what, way more often people use the term feminism to establish more female privileges instead of equality what it should stand for instead.
A significant part of humanity is made of idiots abusing everything to serve their cause, what else is new?

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Rusty_Gunn: I don't think "progressive" devs should try to lead the industry anywhere. They should just make whatever games they want and if people buy them, good for them.
You may have missed it, but we all aggree on that (although the term "progressive" is very debatable of course).
Everybody should be allowed to make whatever games they want and this especcially includes those people I'd rather have actually creating something than censoring and destroying the work of others, you'll have a hard time finding anyone using #gg to disagree with that either.
Post edited March 17, 2015 by Klumpen0815
Posted March 17, 2015
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Emob78: People can debate and critique things all they want. I totally support that. Discussion often leads to hearing ideas or information you were at one time ignorant of. That's part of learning. Fine. But when industry heads and over-rated blogger/activists go to conferences or write papers on why I need to have my hobby changed because of X reasons, I get a little hot over that. Shit, we totally let the ESRB battle go away. Some people, myself included, think that's even going too far, and that's old shit now. Some of these writers and industry heads think that sex and violence in video games is a bad thing, whether it be from the extreme left or right, and they want to manipulate and/or change the whole fucking thing and put it in sync with their myopic, narrow world view. That's not ok with me, and I would hope that gamers would see it the same way. Feminists wanting to remove tits and ass from video games is no different than when religious nuts and politicians wanted to ban and censor video games because of Doom and Duke Nuke 'Em. It's the same thing, just delivered in a slightly different package.

You want to talk about games? Fine. But then don't support people who want to wreck this hobby and tell me that it's not happening simply because you personally don't believe it is. The SJW/feminist brigade have a clear direction they are going, and it's not in my mind an open and level playing field where we all just get together and talk about games. If that's truly all it was, then this controversy wouldn't exist. Talk is cheap, and this isn't a cheap controversy.
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htown1980: I didn't say SJW/feminists aren't wrecking your hobby. I can see you are getting worked up about this so I have no doubt that they are. They aren't wrecking my hobby, however. I enjoy games more now than I did 30 years ago.

My only point is that, a significant part of #gg is about anti-SJW and anti-feminism, not about journalistic integrity. I don't have a problem with that. #gg can be against feminism and SJWs (whether its journalists, developers, critics, etc) , I just don't like when #gg pretend their anti-feminism/SJWism is actually a call for journalistic integrity.
You have to understand that the Game "journalists" have intertwined the two "issues" together themselves because the "kill/ending the "Gamer" identity was based off a Radfem paper.

Why Gamers Had To Die: Part 1 - Gamers Don't Need Diversity
Why Gamers Had To Die: Part 2 - The Industry Must Change For Diversity
&
Why Gamers Had To Die: Part 3 - Pseudo-Academics and Lazy Journalists

Trigger Warning: Sargon of Akkad
Posted March 17, 2015
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htown1980: snip
I have to say one more thing in favor to your opinion though.

Some of the very people that tried to silence me in the vegetarian and vegan threads are advocating free speech here and this is highly hypocritical indeed.
Posted March 17, 2015
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Klumpen0815: Somehow related:
https://trac.videolan.org/vlc/ticket/13320
Hahah, so much butthurt. But while we're at it, I feel offended that they are using the secular modern invention that is the Santa Clause design. I demand that the icon be changed to a Byzantine icon depicting the Nativity. And the icon should last until after Christmas according to the Old Calendar.
Posted March 17, 2015
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Klumpen0815: Somehow related:
https://trac.videolan.org/vlc/ticket/13320
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HiPhish: Hahah, so much butthurt. But while we're at it, I feel offended that they are using the secular modern invention that is the Santa Clause design. I demand that the icon be changed to a Byzantine icon depicting the Nativity. And the icon should last until after Christmas according to the Old Calendar.
Well, I'd like to have the categorical imperative cited in every program at some point so that people get constantly reminded of it, but since I'm no programmer, I can't do anything about that. ;)

The comments on the page are nice.
Posted March 17, 2015
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htown1980: My only point is that, a significant part of #gg is about anti-SJW and anti-feminism, not about journalistic integrity. I don't have a problem with that. #gg can be against feminism and SJWs (whether its journalists, developers, critics, etc) , I just don't like when #gg pretend their anti-feminism/SJWism is actually a call for journalistic integrity.
Personally I think you are being disingenuous. GG could care less about SJW's Radfems, neo-feminists if they stayed out of gaming journalism. The issue is that many of this people are trying to ram their beliefs down our throats at the expense of games.

For you to claim GG is dishonest on these grounds is greatly reaching. The GG stance is pretty clear. Don't lie and distort in support of your friend's games. Don't unduly trash and demean games unfairly just because of your cause. Don't claim all violent games are specifically violent to women when they are not. Don't try to force censorship or change at the point of a gun. The issue most in GG have against these groups is simply their holy jihad with regards to gaming and changing gaming, forcing this change. Neo-feminist radicalism is the problem and it is their use of the media in a vain attempt to extort the changes they want. Calls for journalistic integrity goes hand-in-hand with the abuses of these groups.

I actually find Klumpen's post very appropriate. All the SJW's want is for these developers to remove all the content which offends them....where does it stop? And what concepts then become allowable? Ultimately, the result is censorship.
Posted March 17, 2015
low rated
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htown1980: My only point is that, a significant part of #gg is about anti-SJW and anti-feminism, not about journalistic integrity. I don't have a problem with that. #gg can be against feminism and SJWs (whether its journalists, developers, critics, etc) , I just don't like when #gg pretend their anti-feminism/SJWism is actually a call for journalistic integrity.
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Klumpen0815: A significant part? No. The antis like to claim this, but it's bullshit.

Of course there are people using #gg for stuff that it's not supposed to stand for, but guess what, way more often people use the term feminism to establish more female privileges instead of equality what it should stand for instead.
Can you give some examples of this please?...

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htown1980: My only point is that, a significant part of #gg is about anti-SJW and anti-feminism, not about journalistic integrity. I don't have a problem with that. #gg can be against feminism and SJWs (whether its journalists, developers, critics, etc) , I just don't like when #gg pretend their anti-feminism/SJWism is actually a call for journalistic integrity.
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RWarehall: Personally I think you are being disingenuous. GG could care less about SJW's Radfems, neo-feminists if they stayed out of gaming journalism. The issue is that many of this people are trying to ram their beliefs down our throats at the expense of games.

For you to claim GG is dishonest on these grounds is greatly reaching. The GG stance is pretty clear. Don't lie and distort in support of your friend's games. Don't unduly trash and demean games unfairly just because of your cause. Don't claim all violent games are specifically violent to women when they are not. Don't try to force censorship or change at the point of a gun.
...and you of this?

I'm not seeing either of these things, personally, and aren't aware of the main references either..
Post edited March 17, 2015 by Fever_Discordia
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