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That's what normal people do IRL: face punching or quietly discussing things over a cup of coffe => more efficient than wasting time on Twitter.

BTW, it made me realize that after all this time, I now don't remember why B. Wu got involved in the GG thing in the first place? Why her and not another twitter damsel in distress? How did it reach the tipping point? For AS and ZQ, it's easy to see why but here I don't have a clue :)
Post edited March 05, 2015 by catpower1980
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catpower1980: That's what normal people do IRL: face punching or quietly discussing things over a cup of coffe => more efficient than wasting time on Twitter.

BTW, it made me realize that after all this time, I now don't remember why B. Wu got involved in the GG thing in the first place? Why her and not another twitter damsel in distress? How did it reach the tipping point? For AS and ZQ, it's easy to see why but here I don't have a clue :)
She is involved because she claims to have been scared and run out of her home. She was arguing against Gamergate on Twitter, she was supposedly doxxed and threatened. So she adds to the story of women run out of their home (at least for maybe one night before she kept doing all those media interviews from her home anyway).
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catpower1980: That's what normal people do IRL: face punching or quietly discussing things over a cup of coffe => more efficient than wasting time on Twitter.

BTW, it made me realize that after all this time, I now don't remember why B. Wu got involved in the GG thing in the first place? Why her and not another twitter damsel in distress? How did it reach the tipping point? For AS and ZQ, it's easy to see why but here I don't have a clue :)
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RWarehall: She is involved because she claims to have been scared and run out of her home. She was arguing against Gamergate on Twitter, she was supposedly doxxed and threatened. So she adds to the story of women run out of their home (at least for maybe one night before she kept doing all those media interviews from her home anyway).
Yeah, I remember the "running away" thing but I meant: before that, before press coverage ;)
Not sure if this help but here's an interesting Wu timeline...
http://gamergate.wikia.com/wiki/Brianna_Wu
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Vainamoinen: ...
There's no "must" here. I'll refrain from quoting the article's conclusion yet again, but this is "Yes we can", not "damn it you must".

snip

... While Katie Chironis could call her game 'historically accurate' in the sense that a black person could have been there somewhere, her idea that this character would be representative of the time and age, hence "historically accurate", I fail to follow.

snip

... Every time a game designer justifies a bad design choice with 'historical accuracy', I have to laugh. Chironis justifies a good design choice with historical accuracy, and I STILL have to laugh.

snip
If you really believe this is not largely political (yes, imo you're being disingenuous) I've also got you covered. From a critical perspective ofc... You say salt n pepper, I say fetishistic... tomejto, tomahto ;) doesn't change the fact we seem to agree there is an element of rationalisation in the article, which is intellectually a bit of a stretch. But whatever, that's small fries.

Also small fries is historical context. 16th century London has nothing to do with Victorian, or 18th cent London. I had my rant on that, nuff said. Likewise I'm ignoring the rhetoric about what historical accuracy is or isn't. An interesting discussion, but we'd have to revisit meanings of objectivity and jump from there to historical revisionism. Maybe another thread someday... Do insist otherwise.

Now, on boredom I think you're being really disingenuous. We're not talking about boredom via a vis historical accuracy and relevant to your particular opinions. I riffed on the boredom and sent a few jabs your way because you replied to my comment on normality with the boredom thing. Not sure if you're walking back on that, but I pushed on it because it's very illustrative of the real and substantial differences between us. Descriptive vs prescriptive, free will vs determinism, human nature versus blank slate, etc... etc... these are stereotypes, I don't know you enough to put you in such box 100%, but there you have it.

Anyway I left some quotes of yours I mostly liked above, another thing people usually forget is that not commenting on something is not always obfuscation, ignoring it from irrelevance, or rhetoric ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J6-3l3hCm0

They all claim gamergate is falling apart (they done so since october basically), facts prove otherwise.

There are few thing we need to remember:

-GG is immune to mutiny, since there is simply no leader to dethrone
-GG isn't about winning a war, its about making differences. In that regard, it has already partially won as sites have indeed changed ethics policies (and are reevaluating old articles) and we have raised decent sums of money for various charities.
-SJW are known to carry grudges, more than GGers even. They will not forgive Wu easily.
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Brasas: If you really believe this is not largely political (yes, imo you're being disingenuous)
Then where's our basis of discussion?

Chironis opts for diversity for the very same reasons Shakespeare and Chaucer did and that's a fact. It's just that she goes a little overboard in finding that historically accurate.

This is political agenda paranoia about simple philantropist literary motifs which have, in one variant or another, been around since antiquity. This whole Social Justice Warrior conspiracy crap is continuously embarrassing the gamergate movement.

Even John Bain knows that, that's why he's desperately pleading to stop giving that crap more spins. So I am absolutely aware that not all gamergate currents pull off this delusion.

But, hey, good news for you. It looks like you're about to see TWO "Social Justice Warrior" Sarkeesian Effect documentaries in the future. The Owen edit and the Aurini edit. And right now, it's probably a race for them — whoever finishes first wins.

Interesting times, and, I agree with dragonbeast, we're not yet seeing the end of it.
Post edited March 05, 2015 by Vainamoinen
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Brasas: If you really believe this is not largely political (yes, imo you're being disingenuous)
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Vainamoinen: Then where's our basis of discussion?
Well... I believe there's this thing called objective reality which provides ample basis for discussion, independently of our feelings. Funny, but we have gone back to the beginning huh? I'm saying normality is, and you're bored with it apparently...

Edit: oops, you posted more... Ill read when I can

Well, that was easy... no real substance. Dude, you have SJW right there under your name. Do you see me wearing GG on my sleeve? Defend being SJW or claim satire, that's your prerogative, but don't be an hypocrite ok?

It's like everything is an attack for you, it's all personal. What stress you must experience... maybe play some games? But avoid Elsinore, I'd say Hamlet is too ethically unsure for you... why hesitate right? Revenge all the way...
Post edited March 05, 2015 by Brasas
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Brasas: If you really believe this is not largely political (yes, imo you're being disingenuous)
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Vainamoinen: Then where's our basis of discussion?

Chironis opts for diversity for the very same reasons Shakespeare and Chaucer did and that's a fact. It's just that she goes a little overboard in finding that historically accurate.

This is political agenda paranoia about simple philantropist literary motifs which have, in one variant or another, been around since antiquity. This whole Social Justice Warrior conspiracy crap is continuously embarrassing the gamergate movement.

Even John Bain knows that, that's why he's desperately pleading to stop giving that crap more spins. So I am absolutely aware that not all gamergate currents pull off this delusion.

But, hey, good news for you. It looks like you're about to see TWO "Social Justice Warrior" Sarkeesian Effect documentaries in the future. The Owen edit and the Aurini edit. And right now, it's probably a race for them — whoever finishes first wins.

Interesting times, and, I agree with dragonbeast, we're not yet seeing the end of it.
What you call crap and conspiracy, others see the truth. For example, there was a group called the PMRC, they did bankrupt Alternative Tentacles records with a frivolous lawsuit and succeeded in putting Parental Advisory warning labels on music and pressuring some corporations not to sell music labeled as such. Those are all true...

SJWs did get GTA V removed from New Zealand and Australian Targets and Walmarts on the false grounds that the games was specifically abusive toward women. Many have said they are trying to change the games we play, that a day will come where story-based games will replace shooters and remarkably, many of these story-based games get rather exaggerated ratings on certain media.

There have been many such as the Duke Lacrosse team who have been falsely accused of rape, with plenty of media and political pressure at hand. Groups who claim women will never lie about it, but so many times that has been proven untrue. In fact, most often, when many of these groups cry loudest, it's after rational people have looked at the evidence and found it lacking.

I recall when a black man was killed at a shopping mall. He was shoplifting and was choked to death when restrained by a security guard. Jesse Jackson came to town calling it racism as a black man died at the hands of a white owned business. Didn't matter that the security guard himself was black. Whites were guilty because they owned the business.

So what you call a conspiracy, the more rational; among us see better than you. There are many such advocacy groups, many with great political power all trying to push their agendas as far as possible, even beyond rationality and reasonably.

Who do you think keeps sponsoring all these speaking engagements for Anita? Where is this money coming from? It doesn't grow on trees...

I'm certainly not saying every crackpot theory is true, but there are often elements of truth to many of them. Brianna Wu's self-harassment is one example. Seriously, using an image of a meme dated before the Tweet in question was even sent...other sock puppet accounts...

And @htown, you should be careful of labels, because unless you are in your mid-60's, I'm no "kid" to you...
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Brasas: Do you see me wearing GG on my sleeve?
Yeah, about that, about your alignment, about the "political", and about longer texts for you.

In January, anonymous author “Allen Quatermain” handed in an article to gamergate site reaxxion (owned by Daryush Valizadeh). After publication, David Futrelle of wehuntedthemammoth.com noted that the article was copied almost entirely from a 1966 John Birch Society pamphlet, switching out “communist” with “Social Justice Warrior” (the John Birch Society formed in 1958 as a counterreaction to the abandonment of McCartyism. Founder Robert Welch was convinced that the US government at the time was up to 80% under communist control, directed by the Illuminati). Only after Futrelle’s discovery and after an additional week of contemplation, reaxxion owner Valizadeh concluded that “borrowing” had indeed taken place. As a result, Allen Quatermain was banned from posting more articles on reaxxion. However, the hoax article remained on the site in full, neither cut nor corrected nor otherwise edited in any perceivable way.

On February 26th, gog community member noncompliantgame heralded Valizadeh’s reaction as “ethical journalism”. The plagiarism, he incorrectly assesses, “has been brought to our attention by the good, fair and honest people at Reaxxion”; and centrally, supposedly the pamphlet of the John Birch Society “itself is quite good and hits home” in the context of the gamergate movement.

I asked for everyone's individual opinion on that individual opinion.

Here is yours in full, the most imbecile answer I did receive, and there were at least a few less extreme stances.

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Brasas: Well, I didn't read the article (yet, cos this discussion is certainly getting me interested...), but I at least have a few times said I don't really identify as GG, but certainly I'm anti anti GG, so to speak... you could say that's being anti SJW I guess, and considering I see most radical activism as ineffective or counterproductive (of which SJW is perfect example) that's nothing to do with moral intent, or being a XYZist. Of course logic being what it is, I guess the personalize, polarize rule for radicals will continue to be used willy nilly.

I guess the tl,dr is if the article is anti sjw, ill probably find opinions that I agree with, motives will depend, and only tangential relevance to gg.
Want to find yourself an uninformed, confused political extremist to hate on? Look in the mirror, dude.

But first, a song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gW8xfJ5T_4U
Post edited March 05, 2015 by Vainamoinen
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Vainamoinen: On February 26th, gog community member noncompliantgame heralded Valizadeh’s reaction as “ethical journalism”. The plagiarism, he incorrectly assesses, “has been brought to our attention by the good, fair and honest people at Reaxxion”; and centrally, supposedly the pamphlet of the John Birch Society “itself is quite good and hits home” in the context of the gamergate movement.

I asked for everyone's individual opinion on that individual opinion.

Here is yours in full, the most imbecile answer I did receive, and there were at least a few less extreme stances.

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Brasas:
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Vainamoinen: Want to find yourself an uninformed, confused political extremist to hate on? Look in the mirror, dude.
Dem personal at hominem attacks yo.

And as far as i'm aware they added an editorial on top of the article stating it was largely taken from that pamphlet.


"as a result, Allen Quatermain was banned from posting more articles on reaxxion. " Well that's a whole lot more than the usual anti GG propaganda does (or especially did in the past).

I hope the SJW attack on Wu is a wake up call for her that the anti-gg is a hate movement, and a lot more than gg itself.
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Vainamoinen: snip
Vaina, I'm not sure whether to assume I'm getting under your skin or it's all you...
So here's a straight up post, only one jab. PM if you prefer.

1 - please spell out what is imbecilic about that?
2 - please spell out what is extremist about that?
3 - I actually haven't even read the article in question, should I?

Did you notice me defending you from the imo overblown attacks that you were a stalker and harasser? I sure as heck had no obligation to do so, I don't even like you. So here's the jab: grow a pair will ya? Be a man and actually follow through on what you are starting. That's all I'm asking, and let's call it even.


Edit: one day later and I don't want to make new post / reply on this but since there's been no answer or PM I'm editing to point out that Vaina's quoting my reply #1733 to #1728 where htown brings up SJW. No mention of my actual reply #1740 after Vaina clarified on #1734. This is of course irrelevant as I stand by what I posted and welcome rational discussion of it, just goes to show who the confused hater actually is.
Post edited March 06, 2015 by Brasas
And that's my random rant : You know what, what is really shitty ? I have yet to see anyone really doing a good counter analysis to the "works" of Miss Saark, you know just something polite and unemotional that deconstruct her analysis, proving point by point how ludicrous the way she decided to analyse games like if they where movies and that the people in her bandwagon are just filled with the same insanity that brought us things like The Order 1886 or David Cage's pretentious blurbs. I guess the opportunity for a calm discussion that'll leave her and her incompetence on the side way with a sad smile (Calm down SWJs' I wasn't suggesting any violence beyond the simple rhetorical joust). But everything is lost in the oblivion of controversy and counter-controversy now and for a few good years in the future. She's impossible to attack now, she's become such a sacred figure that the only best thing to do is just completely ignore her, and seeing a few people in the academia, and fortunately not that many, treating her as a reference makes me feel bad.
Post edited March 06, 2015 by Narakir
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Narakir: I have yet to see anyone really doing a good counter analysis to the "works" of Miss Saark
You might find this series by Liana Kerzner interesting:

(Feb 2015 ; 5 part series of articles)
Why Feminist frequency Almost made Me Quit Writing About Video Games
http://metaleater.com/video-games/feature/why-feminist-frequency-almost-made-me-quit-writing-about-video-games-part-1

(Feb 2015 ; video playlist, 5 parts)
Why Feminist frequency Almost made Me Quit Writing About Video Games
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLf9ZVzFaBzHl58cMWr4UWjBRapHJDbQp7

She's a feminist, but she's a sex positive feminist. When she talks about games, it's obvious that she's actually a gamer, and she seems to have an admirable sense of fairness. I don't always agree with her, but I respect her as a legitimate voice concerning gaming (unlike Sarkeesian).

More links from my stash of bookmarks:

(Sep 14, 2014)
A Challenge to Anita Sarkeesian: Listen and Believe #GamerGate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Uw5yTvfeG8

(Oct 25, 2014 ; TYT Nation ; 4 hrs)
On #GamerGate With Games Journalist Liana Kerzner
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fp3kzy3eTcU

(Nov 06, 2014 ; David Pakman Show)
#GamerGate: Liana Kerzner Says Sexism IS an Issue, BUT...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OflBPs49vok
Post edited March 06, 2015 by SeduceMePlz
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**Glances around**

Hmmm. No socio-psychopathic stalkers about.

Very good.

Now. Where was I?

Ah yes ...

Also in Reaxxion, this is what ethical journalism looks like. Re: The editor's note at the top of the article. But still, the article itself is quite good and hits home, even if its plagarism has been brought to our attention by the good, fair and honest people at Reaxxion!




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Some sad news from the good people at the "Sarkeesian Effect". Jordan Owen and Davis Aurini will be working seperately. It seems Jordan Owen is having personal difficulties and the poor man has suffered a "breakdown". I place this in quotation marks as it is not entirely clear from this Reaxxion article or Davis Aurinis commentary on his blog what has happened to him. (Note that Aurini has handled this sad turn of events like a consumate professional and has done all anyone might do for someone in a condition such as is Jordan.) Last week Jordan put out a rather stressful vlog criticizing Roosh's (somewhat tasteless) "legalize rape" satire and this appears to have acted as a catalyst for other underlying issues he may have. Whatever the case may be, he is clearly a human being who is suffering quite badly and is deserving of our sympathy.

From a personal perspective, this is precisely why I tend to stear clear of comments on Zoe Quin and Brianna Wu. (Apart from the old gag "Why are they so like Dick Cheney?" Answer: "Cause they just don't know when to go away." ) Their own personal difficulties just seem a bit too close to the surface and it seems wrong to take cheap shots at the vulnerable.

That is why I am sure good people on both sides of the pro and anti-gaming debate will treat Jordan and the issues involving him, with the respect, kindness and consideration that he or anyone deserves in these circumstances.

Really. When you think about it you realize that only the most vile, loathsome and dispicable low-life trash would score cheap thrills from kicking another human being when they are down ...

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Vainamoinen: Speaking of Hollywood: Hilarious developments at the not particularly bustling set of the "Sarkeesian Effect" documentary! It's a bit like the Backstreet Boys breakup, only with more shit flinging and considerably less tasty butts.
Hey, I just call 'em as I see 'em!

Peace and Love, brothers & sisters.
Post edited March 06, 2015 by noncompliantgame