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General discussionThe #Gamergate news thread(8424 posts) (8424 posts) 
(8424 posts) 
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This is my favourite topic
Posted January 10, 2015
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Gersen: By curiosity is it because someday he committed the "unfathomable crime" of asking if the overused "white men privilege" argument was mostly an American invention that you consider him a "racist apologist" ?
That's the article, yeah. It's a far more rich source of convoluted thought than just that, of course: there's obviously no racism in the UK according to Bain, the black people just don't get the good jobs "because they're lower class" and that's the real problem – duh – and the rich people in his youth were the Pakistani while the poor Bain family was just about getting along, sob. And let's not forget his answer to the claim that there's no relevant discrimination against white people – he starts listing atrocities committed by white people to white people... as if Bain simply had no brain.

And since he's been linking to a Karen Straughan video, his next bullshit step could simply be anything.

As I said, I find Bain to be coerced into revealing his political opinion, so there is still some sympathy for him, but I do find his opinion plainly disgusting.

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Tza: So... where is that revolting "extra sexual jolt" specifically crafted for "male target groups" ?
If you don't see it, it's because you don't want to see it. The law of the playground incites the player to do what the game lets him do; to design a gameplay feature that is not used is the most stupid thing a game designer could ever do; not all players even play 'for the points' and all of them do get points [back] for dragging the corpses to a dumpster; the sexualized attire of the strippers distinguishes them in a massive way from equally killable male NPCs. Consequently, 80% of Hitman ads explicitly referenced the sexual jolt out of pretty half naked female corpses. Linking once more with feeling.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.joystiq.com/media/2006/04/adcritic_hitman_pcgamer_BIG.jpg

Sexism out of thin air? Sometimes, possibly (didn't follow the Watch Dogs critique logic much). Here, not at all.

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F4LL0UT: Screw the fact that not everything Agent 47, a fleshed out character with traits no sane player can identify with, does, is something the player wants him to do or enjoys. Screw the fact that a player can control him while at the same time being appalled by the images on screen.
The identification of the player with the avatar is an absolute law in more open world games. So much in fact that the hero often doesn't even have a name, to facilitate identification. "You can do anything YOU WANT" is what these games are advertised with. Mind the "you", and mind the "want". If Hitman was about looking at what the protagonist does and wants to do while you sit idly in front of the screen, we wouldn't have a conversation here.

I'm not saying that there is no difference, and I'm not saying Sarkeesian shouldn't pay more attention to make that difference. I'm saying that generally, the identification is a sought after goal of game designers naturally, and particularly the younger target group embraces the concept unconditionally. One of the key arguments I've heard against same sex relationships in games was that players "felt forced" into a homosexual relationship by the game. This feeling of force is closely linked to the identification. That extreme unease of the male player in the eternal role of a male protagonist who develops feelings for a male NPC would not be ten percent as strong if he did not identify to the max. When we talk about video games, we almost never say "the protagonist did that", and almost always: "I did that".

The reason the player uses the mechanics provided in any game is their entertainment value. Certainly, being appalled also counts as entertainment value. Hence as a 'defence' against accusations of scenes that may be considered misogynist, "being appalled" doesn't have much value. "Oh my god, [I/Agent 47] [am/is] dragging the corpse of a beautiful naked woman through the room, this is so sick!".

Being appalled and said sexual jolt may go hand in hand here. And that is intended, very much so.

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amok: BTW - I am so glad GG is not about sexism in gaming, but ethics in game journalism. Phew
Frankly, I'm glad that this focus shift was practically complete so early on. I mean, among the "gamergate victory conditions" as heralded by Aurini et al. just a few months ago, you find some blatantly fascist stuff – as in, defining for themselves how "apolitical" games journalism is supposed to look like and then force the "free" press into putting any journalist out of a job who doesn't comply to the arbitrary imposition. I mean, WOW.

So, seriously, yeah, misogyny in video games is the actual issue, let's talk about that.
Post edited January 10, 2015 by Vainamoinen
Posted January 10, 2015
Essentially you are saying that if you can conceive of a way any feature of any game is sexist, it must be intentional. That's a crock.

The feature is that every NPC can be dragged. It has been that way in every Hitman game from the beginning. But somehow, if an NPC happens to be female, this feature is somehow intentional misogyny on the part of the developers.

It's the same thing as saying if a game allows one to shoot any character in the game, having any female NPC's, because of this shootable feature, is a sign of intentional misogyny on the part of the developers, because they want you to blow away women.

Your so-called logic is baffling...

----

As I said before, if you are trying to find an issue too hard, you are going to find it where it isn't.

Intelligent people look at all sides of an issue. Not just with one-sided tunnel vision.
Post edited January 10, 2015 by RWarehall
Posted January 10, 2015
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RWarehall: Essentially you are saying that if you can conceive of a way any feature of any game is sexist, it must be intentional.
No.

No.

No.

And seriously, any sentence you started these last pages that assessed the opinion of another discussion participant was totally and utterly bogus. You see one-sidedness where none exists, continuously.

You're in the extreme business of straw man argumentation.

The question of intent is seldom raised. Interestingly, Sarkeesian mostly sees misogynist tropes in video games as a lack of creativity on the side of the developer. It's easy to rely on them, because they're expected, ready made, traditional and modular inserts for a game. There are some marked exceptions though. Personally, I see a lot of intent in the Hitman design as it appears to me. The advertising certainly isn't helping. Still, all that is a question of "who's at fault", and attributing fault and guilt isn't the primary issue here.

The finger is to be put on the problem, not the culprit.
Post edited January 10, 2015 by Vainamoinen
Posted January 10, 2015
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RWarehall: Essentially you are saying that if you can conceive of a way any feature of any game is sexist, it must be intentional. That's a crock.
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Vainamoinen: No.

And seriously, any sentence you started these last pages that assessed the opinion of another discussion participant was totally and utterly bogus.

You're in the extreme business of straw man argumentation.
Well that is my opinion of your bullshit posts as well.

I at least support my point with common sense. You seem to have tunnel vision and see misogyny everywhere you look. Even going so far as claiming long-time feminists who aren't so extreme as you are anti-feminists.

Let's see, some of your idiotic arguments. like "overuse defies quantification". Are you nuts? Frankly, using the term overuse, demands quantification. But just keep arguing out of your ass...

Let's give an American football example. I claim Team X is overusing run plays. Does that defy quantification? What if the facts say 90% of the plays were passes? I'd be full of shit. But if I quantify and show a team is running the ball 3 times for every pass, I've proved my point.

Instead, you refuse to quantify, claiming the stupid ridiculous argument that your term defies quantification. Anyone with half a brain can see you are avoiding the fact you have no numbers, no proof, and are making the claim out of thin air.
Post edited January 10, 2015 by RWarehall
Posted January 10, 2015
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Vainamoinen: The finger is to be put on the problem, not the culprit.
What problem? There isn't one. In 17 missions in that game, you have those strippers in one part of one of those missions and you call it a problem. Its an easy fix, take all women out of all video games, so people like you can't cherry-pick claims of misogyny.

The real problem with activists such as you, looking at games with extreme tunnel vision, is you will always see a problem.

If a female character is portrayed in a game, you will claim it either lacks background, is poorly implemented, is sexist, is misogynistic, etc etc.

If female characters are taken out of games, then the complaint is they are unfairly unrepresented.

You can't win against irrational zealots.
Posted January 10, 2015
With all the trolling on this thread, in an attempt to try to keep things super POSITIVE and spiritual here is an unintentionally hilarious article clearly written for omega simpletons from Opera "I've just got to wait for all the white people to die off and the world will be perfect" Winfreldy's website instructing us all how to be more positive 8-D.

But just why does a multi-multi-billionaire feeding off the millions of poor people around the world need to cover about 15-20% of her site with clickbait trash adverts?

Anyways, enjoi! ;-)

Internet haters getting you down? It happens to the best of us, even bloggers like Gabrielle Bernstein! Read on for her three steps on how to move past the negativity and make your social media space a more positive place Last Monday, I got a frantic call from my mother. She breathlessly told me: "There's someone on your Facebook fan page writing nasty things about you! But don't worry, honey, I responded and set her straight." I laughed and said, "Thanks for sticking up for me, Mom, but that's not how I handle negativity on the Internet." I went on to explain that, as a spiritual student and teacher, I must practice what I preach. By bringing my spiritual practice to these situations, I intuitively know how to handle haters on the Internet. I helped my mother understand that engaging in the negativity only invests in the negativity. Rather than defend myself and fight back, I've learned to see these encounters as divine spiritual assignments. Through compassion, defenselessness and forgiveness, I've come to see how mindfully dealing with Internet haters can only strengthen my spiritual faith.

As the universe would have it, that wouldn't be my only conversation about Internet haters that week. The following day I was in Chicago shooting a segment for Oprah's "Super Soul Sunday." What was one of Oprah's first questions to my panel? She asked how we handle haters on the Internet! I immediately responded, "Forgive and delete." I explained how I use forgiveness and several other spiritual principles to shine light on the darkness of the Internet.

If you're anything like my mother, it's time to put down the boxing gloves and use my three spiritual tools for handling haters online.

Step 1: It's Not About You
When people attack us on the Internet, many of us immediately assume that the attack has merit and means there's something wrong with us. I choose to have a different perspective—I like to have compassion for these folks. Let's face it: A happy person won't waste his time posting negativity on positive people's pages. Therefore, we must have a tremendous amount of compassion for these people. Anyone who wastes his time and energy spreading negativity clearly needs more light in his life. Begin your practice by saying a prayer for the person. Simply say: "I pray for you to release your negativity and see love instead. I pray for you to be happy." This prayer will immediately reconnect you to a sense of compassion and help you let go of your anger.

Step 2: "In My Defenselessness My Safety Lies"
As a student and a teacher of the metaphysical text A Course in Miracles, I've come to learn that "insistence means investment." When we invest in the illusions of others by defending ourselves or fighting back, we only invest deeper in the craziness. Engaging in negativity creates more of it. Therefore, instead of fighting back or becoming defensive, I remind myself of the Course's message: "In my defenselessness my safety lies." Choosing to release defensiveness helps us steer far away from creating more drama. Fighting back is like yelling at a barking dog. There's no good outcome. Instead, practice defenselessness and witness how much energy and time you save avoiding more drama.

Step 3: Forgive and Delete
The final step is the clutch move. As I said to Oprah, we must forgive and delete. Oprah was pretty psyched to learn that we could actually manage our social media fans. Though we don't have full control over what people say, we can block nasty people and hide hateful comments. But rather than block and hide with an energy of resentment, let's forgive first. Forgiveness helps us detach from the negative energy cord that can live even through the Twittersphere or the Facebook universe. Energy is in everything. If we don't clean up our energy through forgiveness, we'll continue to carry negativity. In the case of handling haters on the Internet, it's imperative that you practice the f-word and forgive. Steps 1 and 2 will prime for forgiveness. Compassion will reconnect you to a sense of oneness and defenselessness, which will help you put down the boxing gloves and settle into a new perspective. The final step is to let go fully and forgive. In this step, you'll use prayer once again. Simply say, "I pray to forgive you and release you." Then feel free to block the user or hide the comment. If you have the power to clear the feed, let that become part of your practice. There's no reason to let negative comments linger. Simply forgive and delete.

Practice Positive Posting
These three steps will help you navigate negative comments on the Internet, but what's most important is to practice raising the positive energy around you. Where there is darkness we need to bring more light. Therefore, join me in 30 days of positive posting. Commit to refrain completely from negative posts and only share positivity. Post your favorite quotes, retweet inspiring nuggets of wisdom, Instagram enlightening photos and pin beautiful pictures that make you smile. Our greatest response to negative posts is a positive one. If we all join together to share more positivity and love on the Internet, the energy of love will heighten. And when love spreads, there's less space for negativity. Join us on November 18 for "Super Soul Sunday" and keep us posted on how your 30 days of positive posting shifts your energy and your life
ROFL literally reaching up from the floor to my PC ... That site is f***in' funny, not as funny as Icanhazcheezburger but a good laugh ...

Oh man! <@X-D+<
Posted January 10, 2015
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RWarehall: In 17 missions in that game, you have those strippers in one part of one of those missions
You still don't understand that this is not about dismissing entire games as misogynist because of one or two scenes.

It's not about percentages or pervasiveness of misogyny in one game or fault and guilt on the side of game designers.

It's precisely about investigating these scenes only.

Which are, not surprisingly, precisely the topic of investigation.

As opposed to any other scenes.

Which, at the very least in the case of Hitman, would not exactly create mitigating cirumstances.
Posted January 10, 2015
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Vainamoinen: *snip*
Yeah...

Seems to me that you're adopting extreme neo-puritans views where eroticism or sexualized content in media is unbearable/dangerous/evil, no matter what.
While some points you raised may be discussed, overexagerating some other points, or fabricating issues doesn't seem to bother you. Also, if something might be interpreted as sexism or misogyny,you seem to consider that this is the only true interpretation.

Care to explain to me how "sexualizing" a stripper in a strip-club managed by local thugs is inappropriate ?

You then say that "the sexualized attire of the strippers distinguishes them from other male npcs". Yes, of course, they're strippers exploited by thugs. Are you seriously saying that depicting these strippers that way is inappropriate or dangerous?

Earlier in that topic you affirmed that "dragging female corpses in that game is meant to give some sexual jolt to males." So, you're generalizing extremely marginalized views to males and we are expected to acknowledge ?

I don't know.

To me, in that particular case, you're making up misogyny to give you reasons to "fight".
Post edited January 10, 2015 by Tza
Posted January 10, 2015
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Tza: Seems to me that you're adopting extreme neo-puritans views where eroticism or sexualized content in media is unbearable/dangerous/evil, no matter what.
No.
Posted January 10, 2015
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RWarehall: In 17 missions in that game, you have those strippers in one part of one of those missions
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Vainamoinen: You still don't understand that this is not about dismissing entire games as misogynist because of one or two scenes.

It's not about percentages or pervasiveness of misogyny in one game or fault and guilt on the side of game designers.

It's precisely about investigating these scenes only.

Which are, not surprisingly, precisely the topic of investigation.

As opposed to any other scenes.

Which, at the very least in the case of Hitman, would not exactly create mitigating cirumstances.
Let's see if I have this straight, just a few posts ago, you were talking about how these things are "overused". Now its just about investigating a couple of these scenes, one is enough. You change your story every time.

The whole point of this whole discussion was that Anita Saarkesian found these themes to be pervasive and overused in video games. Many of us have shown they are not. I guess now you agree, but of course you won't...but that's another story...
Posted January 10, 2015
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Vainamoinen: That's the article, yeah. It's a far more rich source of convoluted thought than just that, of course: there's obviously no racism in the UK according to Bain, the black people just don't get the good jobs "because they're lower class" and that's the real problem – duh – and the rich people in his youth were the Pakistani while the poor Bain family was just about getting along, sob. And let's not forget his answer to the claim that there's no relevant discrimination against white people – he starts listing atrocities committed by white people to white people... as if Bain simply had no brain.
Seriously, that's all ? I seriously thought there was some hidden/deleted twit or blog post that could actually back your claims, I never thought you would actually consider that as being "racism apology"; in that case it doesn't surprise me anymore that you see racist, misogynist, everywhere then.

The only thing he said is that just because you are white doesn't necessarily means that you are automatically "privileged", it depends of other factors like your social class, your religion, your money or several other external factors. I don't see anything shocking or even inherently wrong with that.

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Vainamoinen: If you don't see it, it's because you don't want to see it. The law of the playground incites the player to do what the game lets him do; to design a gameplay feature that is not used is the most stupid thing a game designer could ever do;
What ? Except no it's not, there are plenty of games that allows you to do things you are not supposed to do, that have no purpose except being "possible", Splinter Cell allows you to kill civilian even thought it's an instant lose (in the early games at least), several point and click games allows you to do thing that have absolutely no use whatsoever, plenty of shooter allows you to destroy glass, trashcan, crates, even thought it serve no purpose whatsoever, and let's not talk about open world games. Have you missed all the discussion about emergent gameplay.

If in the game it was impossible to kill any NPC except those stripper then yes you could have a point; but here it's just some random NPC that are killable like most others NPC and just happen to have a stripper skin which kind of make sense for a level taking place in a strip club.

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Vainamoinen: Consequently, 80% of Hitman ads explicitly referenced the sexual jolt out of pretty half naked female corpses. Linking once more with feeling.
Don't know, I am no mathematician but I am pretty sure that two adds out of four doesn't make 80%...
Post edited January 10, 2015 by Gersen
Posted January 10, 2015
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Vainamoinen: snip
So is the games marketing part of the game as phenomena or separate? :) Can't have the cake of ignoring context of the whole game or of the whole society and eat the cake of cherry picking some context... You truly don't see that this is the fundamental methodological / ethical problem on your side that lies beneath most of the GG feelz?

You basically take the 'peasant's' ignorance of your jargon as an indictment of their morality. Just because someone doesn't know or doesn't want to use words like text, phenomena, patriarchy or misogyny in the way you insist does not make them wrong... I remember anecdotes about the soviet revolution and the young idealists going into the fields to educate the worker masses... communication issues a plenty ensued... you know why? Because your type never listens, it's all lecturing and homogenization of culture you want.


Also with interactive media where the game mechanics can interact in several distinct ways or paths, who is mainly responsible for a specific play, the game or the player? I'm not even asking about the author, as that's the kind of context that you guys always prefer to ignore, heck the whole pomo philosophy that infuses this style of lit critique is fundamentally based on death of the author... and yet... Stanley Parable, Gone Home and other kinds of narrative darlings are obviously much more meaningful if analysed from an authorial voice perspective, even if their message is about lack of authorial control.


Anyway, just like I just read over at Idle Thumbs, I really don't see the point Vaina. It's not that you're not actually willing to go deep enough, it's that you absolutely refuse to shift your viewpoint in the interest of understanding the other side. So ironic given the values you likely give lip service to.

You can talk about misogyny in games all you want, but you can't force anyone else to do so. There are other priorities that are valid for human beings. SJW s cross many lines from questionable assumptions to questionable tactics, and the latest being where I disembark from identifying with you. Because you've become the monsters you started fighting, and I see almost no difference between the radicals or the propagandists in both sides.
Posted January 10, 2015
Well, looks I was not the only one to bite, and we have close to a 10:1 'dialogue'. Since I don't actually expect Vaina to meet my expectations, here's some 'news' related to the GG / Intel / feminist frequency stuff.

http://forums.littletinyfrogs.com/460391#replies

Choice quote
"If someone else wants to show their opposition to GG by giving hundreds of millions of dollars to something everyone wants then please, do so. I’ll build the strawmen myself to help."

My cynical self isn't supposed to feel admiration, but Stardock, like Paradox and GOG, still kind of manages to at least provide some warmth.
Posted January 10, 2015
It's all so clear now. Gamergate is preventing diversity in tech. Well I'm sure glad Intel fixed that problem.

Everyone! Go home!
Posted January 10, 2015
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amok: I am not sure what I said which makes economical, I feel it is very much a cultural problem.
What culture? Video games are businesses and they make economic decisions. If they decide to focus only on one demographic it's not because of some culture, whatever that term even means, it's because they are narcissistic college-geeks who worship their book, tables and formulas and can't believe there is anything outside the obvious existing market. If a company, like Nintendo, were to tap into the unserved market they would make millions. But if you're stuck worshipping models you can't see that.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionThe #Gamergate news thread(8424 posts) (8424 posts) 
(8424 posts)