How did you resolve the issues with dependencies. The package manager has a habit of not telling you all the files you need

Because the files it needs from the internet are unique to each distribution and their needs. So there’s no probability or future proofing like with exe’s and msi’s

True, but the clock will still work but your programs will not. Also the Windows DRM is really bad or really good depending on your point of view. It’s very easy to bypass is what I’m saying and even legal if you use it on an ios you purchased. Even gog have been known to use no CD cracks to circumvent the DRM in some of their games. Others like Unreal Tournament have the CD code embedded into the installer. technically still DRM but it won’t get in the way in any way.

Well that right there should be a huge hint as to what the problem with Linux is. I’d argue that the way Linux does this isn’t so much “hard” as it is just bad. This would be a problem and I wouldn't have even started this whole drama if it wasn’t for the way Linux people keep pushing this thing in everyone's faces. Furthermore they keep demanding that game studios should make their stuff for Linux first and foremost. This entitlement is really what pisses me off. Use our shit because we think you should, make stuff for out shit because we think you should, leave it all open source and do it our way because we think you should.

I don’t think you understand what Stockholm Syndrome is. Windows would be to take physical forum and start kidnapping people by point of gun before that could happen. Anyway, just no, there are many ways to do things in Windows. One of the perks of being the most used Desktop os is that every program is made for it. You can even get repositories for it such as chocolatey. Buuuuuuut, no one really uses it. This is because… no one wants to use repositories. They want to use exe’s. Not even microsoft themselves can get people off of it. They tried it with the Windows store and it went about as well as the metro start menu. People want what’s familiar. So here’s an idea. Give them what they want instead of telling them what they should want. This goes for both Linux and Microsoft.

yum -C install $package
Basically it tries to install from the cache, then tells me what files it needs. Works like a charm. Have you ever used a package manager? On Linux? If you've been having problems, perhaps you should file a bug report?

All the more reason to let the distro handle it.
And I find that the files tend to have version numbers and what distro they were made for, unlike in Windows.
Meanwhile, I remember how some Windows 95 games would automatically install DirectX 1 over top of later versions of DirectX.
And I seem to hear about quite a few programs having problems running on different versions of Windows. Hardly future-proof.

What programs? I'm afraid I don't understand you. What programs rely upon the clock being synced to the internet, then failing when the internet is shut off?
And the point of Microsoft DRM is not that it is ineffective or easily bypassed.
It is that it exists. Period.
As well the legality of it boils down to the company not suing-yet. And the issues of malware potentially with such cracks. Though to be fair, some DRM amounts to malware as well.

In what way does easy-to-use equal bad on Linux, but not Windows? You may need to elucidate more. My first thought on something complaining about doing something in an easy way, and then complaining about an alternate way being hard, is that it does not translate into a failing of the OS, but rather the complainer. Similarly to someone at a restaurant complaining about cheese being on their meal, and then when it is removed, complaining that there is no cheese on their meal.

Back when I started using Linux, I would compare it to DOS. Every difference was a failing of Linux. Until I started looking closer. Sometimes there was a reason for it, a purpose, an improvement. It made sense. It was better. (Not always, mind you. Sometimes it was good, sometimes bad. And under certain circumstances it could be either way) Are you doing the same? Because Windows lacks certain functionality is Linux bad for having it?

Haven't ever heard anyone suggest that games companies should make their games first for Linux. Though perhaps they were trolling? (If so, you should just ignore them.)
I do think that there are a lot of people who would like Linux if they were ever to try it. Chromebook sales would suggest that. Netbook too before Microsoft rammed their way in, then killed the market.
The Windows market share would certainly suggest that Windows games should come out, at least initially (or perhaps simultaneously with Mac and Linux releases).
But I do feel that the same argument applies to consoles and phones causing companies to preferentially avoid/delay Windows versions, which should make you nervous. Very nervous. Extremely nervous.
I think that companies should look at whether they can make money with a Linux port. Or other advantages. If they can't make money, they probably shouldn't. But more than a few have come forward to say that they have, so it is possible. And for Unreal Tournament 1, I seem to recall that the port to Linux helped them with their Playstation 2 port.

You do realize what a metaphor is, yes?
A metaphor is a figure of speech that directly refers to one thing by mentioning another for rhetorical effect. (Wikipedia)
I wasn't saying that Windows was physically kidnapping people, but rather it was trapping them (metaphorically) and that they were falling in love (metaphorically?) with Windows flaws, and they were attacking (metaphorically) other OSes for not having those flaws.

Glad to hear that Windows is starting to have package managers. I was starting to get worried. Though if they are having trouble getting adoption (at least according to you) perhaps they're doing something wrong?
For this chocolatey, perhaps it having problems with not being a system tool installed by Microsoft, or that it is not well known. Or that it provides ~6,000 packages, while Ubuntu provides ~73,000, Debian 68,000, Fedora 20,000. Though most likely the concern on looking at the website that there are ~6,000 packages, but ~4,500 "Known good packages".
For Windows Store (assuming that it does download and install dependencies, which I don't actually know that it does), I suspect that it's problems were less with users saying, "Oh no, having a program handle the dependencies is too easy, so none of that for me!", and more that the app developers perceived it as Microsoft attempting to shoehorn themselves into the app's revenue streams, and the developers telling them exactly where to go, and when they could expect to see their app in the Windows Store. And probably other reasons.

Still don't understand how downloading files on Linux=DRM, but not on Windows.

What a sad try. I see nothing out of it. They don't even bother adding that fire flower shop. I do understand they and Zoom freak each other out with Zoom having some (ex?) industry giants behind it; but that fire flower is not added yet comes of a bit petty. "Thou shalt have no other DRM free gaming before me" much? Defeats the "together forever" purpose against DRM.

Besides no talk from staff about that at all. Such an initiative invites to have dialogue about it, talks about that. People obviously would love to hear some more details beyond a simple "here it is, suck it up or gtfo" behind choice of the strong wording of that campaign.

edit
the more I think on it and the more time passes this initiative resembles this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhdXHpgD58g

Zoom? Fire Flower? What are you even talking about?

And you think software makes are just going to be okay with that?

Direct X doesn’t work that way and never has. It seems the more you use Linux the less you know how Windows does things.

it is for me. Legal too if you own a licence.

It’s easier to bypass Windows DRM then it is to run Linux air-gaped. That’s my point.



I’m saying that Linux or rather Linux based distros. are badly designed for the desktop, for development and for use by the general public.



That’s called mental gymnastics, and is a much better example of your stockholm syndrome metaphor.

Then you haven’t been around the community for very long, but you can start with a youtuber called “The Linux Gamer”



Spoiler, they can’t. Why do you think Witcher 3 has no Linux port

Yes but even as a metaphor it makes so sense. Judging from your self described experiences with Linux that I address earlier, I’d say this more applies to Linux then Windows.


The Linux community reminds me of AMD fanboys. Always complaining that they don’t see the same success as their superior competitor. There have been many times when Microsoft has just about handed you guys a win. I’m going to list them.

Windows Vista. For 3 bloody years Windows Vista was the latest version of Windows before 7. What the hell were you guys doing? The desktop space was right there for the taking and you just sat twiddling your thumbs.

Windows 8/8.1 Another shitty version of Windows that no one wanted. A perfect opportunity.

Steam OS/Steam machines: This would’ve been a much smarter decision as the time of Vista but terribly unoptimised performance and buggy OS ensured that this system is all but dead. Can’t even get them in my country.

So with two failed OS generations and the backing of Valve Linux-Desktop still can’t get passed the 1% for desktop user space.

Are you starting to see my frustrations. I want results not excuses.

Yeah there is. The fact that they exist. No one WANTS to use them. People are content going to websites and grabbing installers; for what should be, really obvious reasons.



Because Linux doesn’t have exe installers. Linux needs a constant internet connection to work and without it, it’s just dead weight. With Windows it needs the internet to activate but once you have the exe you can copy it or just hold onto it and it will work. Exe files are portable while a collection of deb files unique to a distribution is not.

Windows would not stop a game installer from overwriting DirectX with an older version. Especially then, as Windows 95 didn't have user privilege separation.

Getting people to back up their irreplaceable files is challenge enough, why would they back up stuff they can "just download again"?

Sorry for the late reply; for some reason there are no notifications anymore on this thread; also it does not get moved upwards by posting into it. Could it be that gog wants to bury & forget this ever happened? oO

Thats the competition in question:

https://www.zoom-platform.com/

http://fireflowergames.com/

According to a few pages back Zoom has problems with GoG and does not want to participate and Fire Flower asked to be in but does not get to for some reason.

I have not shopped there yet so I don't know how DRM free they are compared to GoG; Steam after all claims to be DRM free in some cases too but good luck getting a DRM free .exe installer from them for said cases.

Cut this in half to see if might be post length problem.

Had to strip out all the quote paginations in an effort to get this to post.
-- -- Mine ----Magnarock's

--All the more reason to let the distro handle it.--

----And you think software makes are just going to be okay with that?----


They'll be handling their own installers so I don't see why that matters. And many of the windows installers I've seen boil down to a shell around unzip. So why not just use that for a self-contained game?


--Meanwhile, I remember how some Windows 95 games would automatically install DirectX 1 over top of later versions of DirectX.--

----Direct X doesn’t work that way and never has. It seems the more you use Linux the less you know how Windows does things.----


I had heard that "The Hive" a Windows 95 released at the same time as Windows 95 automatically installed DirectX because the developers had assumed that no one would already have it already installed. I'd been hoping to find a site citing this, but apparently my google-fu was too weak. Might have been that someone mistakenly installed DirectX and overwrote the later DirectX files since it looks like back in the early days Microsoft used the same name for the DLLs.


--And the point of Microsoft DRM is not that it is ineffective or easily bypassed.--

----it is for me. Legal too if you own a licence.----


Mind providing a source? I saw that it's legal to jailbreak phones, but the phrasing was "Computer programs that enable wireless telephone handsets to execute software applications," which would tend to exclude operating systems not on phones.



-- It is that it exists. Period.--

----It’s easier to bypass Windows DRM then it is to run Linux air-gaped. That’s my point.----



Pardon? I routinely shut off the internet when I don't specifically need it. No problems.
A year or two ago, my internet was down for about 3 weeks or so. Installed some GOG games to play while I was waiting for the technician to come.


--In what way does easy-to-use equal bad on Linux, but not Windows?--

----I’m saying that Linux or rather Linux based distros. are badly designed for the desktop, for development and for use by the general public.----


I find Linux quite useable. And it seems that quite a few people use Linux for development. And Chromebooks sales do suggest that people can use Linux.
Though personally I'd put it down to you using Windows means that you define it as the easiest-to-use system and that anything different is strange and scary. And bad.



--Back when I started using Linux, I would compare it to DOS. Every difference was a failing of Linux. Until I started looking closer. Sometimes there was a reason for it, a purpose, an improvement.--

----That’s called mental gymnastics, and is a much better example of your stockholm syndrome metaphor.----


No, what I was trying to explain my mindset I was operating under. I didn't start irrationally liking things because they were in Linux. I stopped irrationally hating it because they weren't in DOS, and started looking at it dispassionately.
And I find myself amazed at how how many of those supposed failings, those design choices were implemented in Windows years later. Being able to set up your computer so that software would not be installed without your permission, multiple users, etc. And usually to plaudits among Windows users once they began to understand the advantages.


--Haven't ever heard anyone suggest that games companies should make their games first for Linux.--

----Then you haven’t been around the community for very long, but you can start with a youtuber called “The Linux Gamer”----


Never heard of him. Been using Linux for quite a while, but don't use Youtube much. I like to remember the quote from Larry Niven, "There is no cause so noble it will not attract fuggheads." Or alternatively there is a form of humor known as satire.
Or more likely that you are misinterpreting what he is saying. Just a possibility.
Perhaps if you were to post a link to a video saying that games should be released first for Linux, it might help?


Part 2

--I think that companies should look at whether they can make money with a Linux port.--

----Spoiler, they can’t. Why do you think Witcher 3 has no Linux port----


(Tried to include web links but I was having problem with the site saying "Please wait. Processing..'
Google for "blog.wolffire.com why-you-should-support-mac-os-x-and-linux"
(Though I tend to expect that as the number of Linux games has gone up, the increased sales have gone down somewhat as Linux users would have more choice, but still...)
Google for "boilingsteam.com sales-figures-to-generate-profit-with-linux-ports"
(Unfortunately a bit focused on Wine ports and based a fair bit on extrapolation..)
Google for "ron gilbert thimbleweed park sales linux" with the twitter post wait you're looking for.
(A post from Ron Gilbert saying that a third of Thimbleweed Park sales were on Mac and Linux)
Though I like to think the best example is how many companies that release a Linux port, and then proceed to do so again.

As for Witcher 3, personally I think it had a lot more to do with the problems with the Witcher 2 port and how some people were being very nasty to them, and they decided to wash their hands of it. Hoping at some point they'll think about it again, look at the numbers, and reconsider.


--You do realize what a metaphor is, yes?--

----Yes but even as a metaphor it makes so sense. Judging from your self described experiences with Linux that I address earlier, I’d say this more applies to Linux then Windows.

Steam OS/Steam machines:

Are you starting to see my frustrations. I want results not excuses.----


When you first rode a bicycle, did you manage to win a bike race upon first sitting on the seat? Or did you fall off? More than once?
There is a learning curve for everything. Even for Windows, especially for Windows. (I can see quite a few places that offer training for Windows, help books in the bookstores.) And I'm afraid that you don't see it because you think it is normal. And can't consider it being any other way.

About Valve, I saw SteamOS as little more than a threat to Microsoft over the Windows Store. When Microsoft backed down, they slowed their pace, then stopped making the Steam Machines entirely. I honestly don't think Valve wants to get into the PC manufacturing business. Selling the hardware isn't exactly the blockbuster that their games store is, and I expect they didn't want to step on the OEM's toes. And they achieved their goal.
As for Valve, fast is not something they're good at, and as Half-Life 2 Episode 3 shows, they don't necessarily have the ability to finish what they start.


And I honestly don't see why you care about Linux. If you think that Linux is failing then why not laugh about and ignore it. When I see someone get worked up over something, I think that they're worried about it. Why should you care about how I go about installing my games on Linux without an internet connection? Go about your life. Stop fixating on things. It's not healthy.


--Glad to hear that Windows is starting to have package managers. I was starting to get worried. Though if they are having trouble getting adoption (at least according to you) perhaps they're doing something wrong?--

----Yeah there is. The fact that they exist. No one WANTS to use them. People are content going to websites and grabbing installers; for what should be, really obvious reasons.----



Again, still think they're not doing the job properly.. Though to be fair, in a closed-source/sold market, there would be problems implementing it. What happens when the dependency is sold as well?
As well that whole "Known good packages" issue. If I were to walk into a restaurant that said 75% of our food guaranteed to be unpoisoned, I'd probably walk out again.


--Still don't understand how downloading files on Linux=DRM, but not on Windows.--

----Because Linux doesn’t have exe installers. Linux needs a constant internet connection to work and without it, it’s just dead weight. With Windows it needs the internet to activate but once you have the exe you can copy it or just hold onto it and it will work. Exe files are portable while a collection of deb files unique to a distribution is not.----


I think you may need to clarify. In earlier posts I thought you were simply saying that when Linux had to download files from the internet, that was DRM, but now you sound as if you're claiming that Linux needs the internet simply to run.
Is there some sort of bizarre distro you're thinking of? Am I misreading what you've written?

There are installers. Personally I rather liked LIFLG's but they haven't released much in a few years, though quite a few companies use the technology as a basis for their own installers.
Next time you're downloading a game from GOG go into the OS selection for some game that has a Linux version, and switch it to Linux. You'll see an installer that works perfectly fine off-line. I've done it quite a few times myself.
Same as the Windows installers on GOG. No need to activate anything once you've downloaded them.

Oh dude. Sorry, I'm not reading all of that. Please condense it down. Also anyone else who wishes to talk to me about Linux can do so here https://www.gog.com/forum/general/i_use_linux_because/page7 Move all Linux conversations there please.

For something more on topic: I think the DRM free release of Cyberpunk 2077 will do a lot to improve the DRM free distribution business model.

Yes, please...

Going to lose a lot, but no doubt that's your intent. And probably a bit more confrontational than I'd like, but you asked for it.
----
Yes there are installers for Linux, some right here at GOG. I think saying that Linux needs the internet to run because downloading files requires the internet is hypocritical when you don't apply the same criteria to Windows.

You claim that breaking the DRM on Windows is legal, prove it.

You claim that "The Linux Gamer" said that Linux game development should be "first and foremost", prove it.

Yes companies can make money on Linux games, Ron Gilbert said that a third of Thimbleweed Park sales are on Mac and Linux. And others have said they've made money..
----
And I presume you're not going to reply to this at least here, since you wanted all Linux conversations moved over there after this condensation. Yours too...

Both of them are 100% DRM free. So, arguably even more DRM-free than GOG is. Especially zoom reminds me a bit of GOG in it's infancy, when they still seemed to really mean their ideals.

It's very interesting that this thread isn't moved upwards anymore. A good way for GOG to bury their shame in obscurity. This PR stunt really backfired, I think. The sad thing is: it could have been successful if they had made it genuinely about anti-DRM than about cheap PR. If they had included other DRM-free game retailers from the get-go, the reaction probably would have been much more favourable for GOG. Like: "Hey, they even advertise their competitors. Now THAT's a statement for DRM-free!" instead of the "Haha! What a thinly veiled PR attempt" that they got as reaction. ... Well, and quoting Gabe as proponent for their initiative didn't really help either. That's like quoting Hugh Hefner as proponent for celibacy.

I responded dude check the other thread.

To everyone else I really must apologize for derailing the thread somewhat. I will take action to stop it.

Hey! That's a great idea.

Yep, found it as soon as I got on my computer.
Too busy living a life.

Nice to hear.