It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
Community
General discussionThe COVID-19 thread(1039 posts) (1039 posts) 
(1039 posts) 
Pages:
1
10
20
30
40
50
60
61
62
63
64
65
70
This is my favourite topic
Posted March 28, 2020
low rated
avatar
LiefLayer: When the East German mark was changed 1: 1 to the West German mark.
Could you explain the exact mechanism what Italy supposedly had to do with this and sacrificed in this regard?
As for "France, Spain, Portugal etc. also want Eurobonds"...lol, of course, because they're also heavily indebted and think they'll profit from it. Again, it's easy to laud yourself for being so much in favour of "solidarity", when you expect to be profiting from it. Your division of European countries into "unselfish" and "selfish" ones is childish.
Posted March 28, 2020
low rated
avatar
richlind33: I read articles, such as the series Seymour Hersh wrote for The New Yorker re the Bush administration's manipultion of the collection and analysis of intelligence pertaining to it's allegations re Iraq's violation of UNSC resolutions, which were made as a pretext for war.

As for vaccines, every single disease for which there is a vaccine was in decline long before vaccines showed up. Every single one.
You're ignoring my points and going off on a tangent to make some inconsequential point of your own.

I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but as others have noted, it might not be warranted.

Let me know if you want to engage in good faith at some point.
Posted March 28, 2020
low rated
avatar
LiefLayer: Nobody asked you to pay for other countries debts. The only thing that italy and other countries for eurobond is asking is to be able to make debts in this virus crysis where all European nations guarantee for the others so that everyone can access a low interest rate, which is fundamental in this period.
Italy will still pay for Italy debts.
The problem is, I (and many others) are not convinced of that you will be able to, even if you wanted to (and I am not even sure "you" want to pay your debts). Same for Greece.

The main problem still is that the other countries backing the weaker countries have no power to change the financial policies you have. Remember all the whining when other countries and IMF started demanding Greece to fix its problems and politics, in order to get financial support? We were the bad guys because we actually demanded some actions from Greece in order to get our financial backing. Greece always had the option to not take the support and backing, and do whatever they want.

avatar
LiefLayer: And there are a lot of people like you also in italy. People who want the end of the European Union and who want to return to the lira.
Instead, I believe in a united and supportive Europe. But if there are countries that do not want to be part of it, I think it is right for them to leave.
Frankly, that would probably be the best. Northern countries who take better care of their economy could be part of Euro 1, and southern countries could join Euro 2. The main problem with euro is that there are both weaker and stronger economies in it.

As I mentioned, Sweden is not part of euro. And they don't seem to be eager to join it either, and I can fully understand why. They seem to be doing fine in EU without euro.
Post edited March 28, 2020 by timppu
Posted March 28, 2020
low rated
avatar
morolf: Could you explain the exact mechanism what Italy supposedly had to do with this and sacrificed in this regard?
As for "France, Spain, Portugal etc. also want Eurobonds"...lol, of course, because they're also heavily indebted and think they'll profit from it. Again, it's easy to laud yourself for being so much in favour of "solidarity", when you expect to be profiting from it. Your division of European countries into "unselfish" and "selfish" ones is childish.
That's not true at all. Before covid 19 I was the first to say that Italy should reduce the debt and I was against laws made to create more debt without a return.
But there are exceptions.
Covid crysis is one of them. And I will say the same thing even if Germany will need the same in the future. This is not the time for small national interests.
Italy and other countries that are strike by coronavirus will need to make more debts even at higher interest rate even alone, because people that cannot work will need food and money to pay for first necessity.
Profit is not what I have in mind right now, only lives of people (not only in italy).

For the mark 1:1 change I will just say this. All europe made it possible that the mark of east germany (which was worth much less than that of the west) had changed 1:1, this was a sign of solidarity from the rest of europe as otherwise east germany would have been in poverty for a long time.
This is just an example, I'm sure there are lot's of solidarity example in the european history (not just UE). This, however, is another story, the main problem here is to save lives from starvation (by the quarantine) and the virus, everything else can wait.

avatar
timppu: The problem is, I (and many others) are not convinced of that you will be able to, even if you wanted to (and I am not even sure "you" want to pay your debts). Same for Greece.
I can undestand that for a regular time. Trust is something you gain (even if it is not the fault of all citizens).
But everything has a limit and for me this limit is natural disasters and what reduces people to starvation.
I don't think that the debts will not be repaid (so far Italy has never declared default and not all the other eurozone countries), so a minimum of trust, at least at a time like this, I thought was there.
Post edited March 28, 2020 by LiefLayer
Posted March 28, 2020
avatar
timppu: Unless we are talking about full dictatorships like North Korea, all countries have the leaders they deserve.
[...]We can't vote in Italian elections, you can.
Because you think we (France, Italy, Norway, Germany...) can vote for the leaders we want ?
Ho... You must believe we leave in democracy where we can freely choose who to vote for ? That all the citizens are equals ?
Well, just look the wealth of the people you can vote for, and the average wealth of a citizen.
Look who they know personnaly, who they have accointance with, and who an average citizen have private access to.

We are all in aristocracy/ploutocracy. Not democracy.

avatar
timppu: I am so jealous of Swedes who are not part of the euro zone and still have their own currency
I couldn't refrain myself : you have the leaders you deserve too ! :-)

As for comparing financial troubles, it will take pages and pages to demonstrate how every country should just shut their mouth before mocking or giving advices to others.
There are so much countries whose actual wealth is not because of their recent policies but because wealthier countries in the past gave them money or fiscal advantages so they don't starve and can join their level.
One can speak of Luxembourg (one of the poorest country in 1900) vastly helped by France, Germany... in the 20's, and now using the advantages we gave to this little country to continue siphoning taxes of the bigger countries,
Ireland, spain... Billions of dollars given in the 1980, 1990.
Etcetera, etcetera...

I don't say we shouldn't have given them those billions, we had to.
Just it will be good to remember before criticizing countries that gave that money, transfered industries to them , bought their products instead of their own, and well, can have today some "debt" problems. Debt being mostly created to tranfer riches from poor and middle class to the wealthiest, but not to create more public services or helping the poorest.

Maybe it's time to shut down all frontiers, forbid people and goods exchanges. And we'll see who is so strong, who will just survive. And who will ask after a week or two the help of the ones they despised a week ago.
Posted March 28, 2020
low rated
avatar
richlind33: I agree with you with respect to valuation, but you seem to be someone who embraces a more humane ethos. Subjectivity, and all that. ;p
avatar
francksteel: No, it's really practical and objective :
- trading cost billions of dollars to public ressources, hence the lack of beds in hospitals, less and less money for aged people, more and more unemployment, all this causing more and more deaths in the world, and subsequantially lowering my own wages.
Traders have an objective negative value, if you really want to take all the figures and not just how cynically the GDP is calculated (not to mention GDP is a vast humbug as how much are valuated all the natural ressources (trees, iron, petrol, sun energy... ), the answer is : zero. The true subjectivity is in how businness or public accounting value or not things.

As for sourcing, who would you say has greater credibility with respect to WMD, Dick Cheney, or Hans Blix? And please take your time. lol
avatar
francksteel: I don't know what is WMD the acronym for (weapon of mass destruction it seems?)

Well, I don't remember what Hans Blix said about Iraq weapons. I remember well the speech of our prime minister though.

What I know (and knew) it's that Dick Cheney made millions of dollars in stock actions by deciding to make war to Iraq.
That doesn't mean by itself that he was lying, only that he has very valuable reasons to do so.
I also have a big bias against any claim by USA politicians (particularly if they are republicans - their economic logic is so flawed)

So, not remembering what Hans Blix recommended, and knowing Cheney, and if they said something different, I would naturally have a better feeling toward Blix.

All this of course if the only sources I'll have would be those two.

But, there were many more sources than those two, and logic helped too :
1/ it was technically and financially impossible that Iraq had the 4th army of the world;
2/ long range missiles and nuclear weapons are so hard to have it was very unlikely Iraq could have, even just one;
3/ from memory, it was also allegiated connection between Iraq government and Al-Qaeda. Well, that was also very unlikely to anyone knowing history between Iraq government and Al-Quaeda...

Of course, all this could have been proven wrong, and someone who didn't have curiosity about this part of the world in the 90's and beginning of the 2000's, discovering the assertions of Cheney would certainly have a lot of difficulty to find on the web who to believe.

But well, you avoided again the question.
That's very funny.
Human perception is inherently subjective, and by extention, so is objectivity; but it's an important concept, because in trying to achieve objectivity, we can lessen the extent to which perception is distorted.

When it comes to sourcing, the most important thing is whether or not it can be verified. So anything that neglects to provide sourcing can immediately be rejected on that basis alone, and should be. From there, I look for investigative rigor, and for people who demonstrate a desire to find truth *irrespective* of what that truth happens to be.
Posted March 28, 2020
low rated
avatar
LiefLayer: For the mark 1:1 change I will just say this. All europe made it possible that the mark of east germany (which was worth much less than that of the west) had changed 1:1, this was a sign of solidarity from the rest of europe as otherwise east germany would have been in poverty for a long time.
Total bs, the currency union between West and East Germany was an internal German matter, there was no solidarity from "Europe" (in fact many in France, Britain and Italy as well would very much have liked it if German reunification didn't happen, but the only ones who really had to make the decision were the Soviets and the Americans), this was all backed up by West Germany's economic power. You're simply making things up to fit your pre-conceived anti-German narrative, absolutely dishonest. I don't wish ill on Italy (especially not in a time like this), but do I want a fiscal union with people like you, who try to use emotional blackmail instead of an honest discussion about conflicts of interest? Certainly not.
As for "starvation", get a grip. There's no prospect of Italy suffering "starvation" because of Covid-19, and Eurobonds aren't needed to prevent that.
Posted March 28, 2020
if you really believe that I think you germany should just leave europe.
the foundation of europe is about principles of solidarity before economy.
Posted March 28, 2020
avatar
LiefLayer: if you really believe that I think you germany should just leave europe.
the foundation of europe is about principles of solidarity before economy.
Solidarity isn't a one-way street, but you seem to be unable to understand that. Pointless discussion, and I really want to end it now, since this will get the thread locked otherwise.
Posted March 28, 2020
low rated
avatar
francksteel: Because you think we (France, Italy, Norway, Germany...) can vote for the leaders we want ?
Ho... You must believe we leave in democracy where we can freely choose who to vote for ? That all the citizens are equals ?
Well, just look the wealth of the people you can vote for, and the average wealth of a citizen.
Why not? To me that seems to work in e.g. Finland. Take for example the earlier minister of labor. He was definitely not rich, high income or even highly educated (even though getting high education in Finland is pretty much free, your income or rich parents don't dictate what level of education you can get). He worked in a paper mill before becoming a minister, if I recall right he was even unemployed before that.

avatar
francksteel: We are all in aristocracy/ploutocracy. Not democracy.
Time to sharpen up guillotines yet again?

avatar
timppu: I am so jealous of Swedes who are not part of the euro zone and still have their own currency
avatar
francksteel: I couldn't refrain myself : you have the leaders you deserve too ! :-)
Yes we do, and I am not blaming the French or Italians for Finland joining the eurozone (while Sweden quite wisely stayed out of it). That must also be why our only EU-skeptic party is now leading the polls by a wide margin. They are not in the government at the moment as they didn't achieve the #1 place before the elections.

Then again, as mentioned before, even the current Finnish government (which is quite EU-positive) seems to be firmly against the eurobonds, so in that sense, yes we have the leaders we deserve, thankfully.

avatar
francksteel: Maybe it's time to shut down all frontiers, forbid people and goods exchanges. And we'll see who is so strong, who will just survive. And who will ask after a week or two the help of the ones they despised a week ago.
All EU countries should be like Sweden, with their own currency. Somehow that doesn't seem to prevent them from being part of EU, Schengen and in the same market.

The only good thing about euro is that it is far easier to exchange euros to Thai Baht or USD or whatever abroad, than it was in the past with Finnish mark.
Posted March 28, 2020
low rated
avatar
KasperHviid: Any rumor exists solely because of the people spreading it. So I think it's worth considering what ideas you want to contribute to, or not.
I do, to a point. I also think people should think somewhat for themselves, however.

avatar
KasperHviid: Pretty much the entire human history shows that humans are prone to act irrationally. You should read up on brain science. It's fun stuff! I can recommend the book You Are Not So Smart
Then it doesn't matter as much what people say if people will act that way regardless, now does it?

(Also nice dig at me with the bolding...real cute and clever)
Posted March 28, 2020
low rated
I must say I don't like the way the thread has been diverted from its original purpose.
I would have a lot to say about the subjects you are discussing about in the last posts, but this is not the right place nor the right moment to, so I ask you to refrain to post anything not directly related to COVID-19 and its impact on daily life.
I don't mean to appear too authoritarian, but I also feel somehow responsible for what is discussed about here, so I would like you all to stay in topic.
Otherwise I will be forced to suppose that the thread has already reached its goal, it's not useful anymore and, in that case, I will ask the moderators to lock it myself.
Posted March 28, 2020
low rated
avatar
richlind33: I have a multitude of sources at my disposal, from which I can choose those which have the best sourcing, so I don't have to rely on internet randos *or* corporate "experts" -- and it's the exact same for everyone who has access to the internet and is able to think critically.
People need to and should think critically more often, but some(in general, not just here) seem to think listening to "officials/experts" blindly/solely is a good thing, for some reason.
Post edited March 28, 2020 by GameRager
Posted March 28, 2020
avatar
timppu: Why not? To me that seems to work in e.g. Finland. Take for example the earlier minister of labor. He was definitely not rich, high income or even highly educated (even though getting high education in Finland is pretty much free, your income or rich parents don't dictate what level of education you can get). He worked in a paper mill before becoming a minister, if I recall right he was even unemployed before that.
Well, I can also cite 1 prime minister in France.
And that's it.

I already, a few post ago, send this[url= https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/files/gilens_and_page_2014_-testing_theories_of_amer ican_politics.doc.pdf] link[/url], please, take your time to read it. It's certainly not that bad in Finland, but by how much ?

Time to sharpen up guillotines yet again?
1/ This is a sophism. You may think that what I write don't deserve better, well, me I think if you want to stop the discussion because you don't have arguments, say it, that will be more honest.

2/ As for now, rich people are responsible for far more deaths than any poor would be able to do in their ranks.
use this : https://www.sciencesetavenir.fr/nature-environnement/pollution/la-pollution-cause-7-millions-de-morts-par-an-dans-le-monde_123266

and that (or any other source you want to see how the wealthiest 1% contribute to pollution )
https://www.oxfam.org/fr/publications/inegalites-extremes-et-emissions-de-co2

So, I think that the guillotine - as it was historically - is more a way to shut the mouth of the poor than to kill the rich.

You should also really learn about french revolution, its cause, its consequences.
That will show you how meaningless is the sentence "we have the leaders we deserve".
Posted March 28, 2020
An analysis of the current situation and future crisis (you can subtitle it in english), by a somewhat well known french astrophysician.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SmNJ0R9ZUg
Pages:
1
10
20
30
40
50
60
61
62
63
64
65
70
This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionThe COVID-19 thread(1039 posts) (1039 posts) 
(1039 posts)