Posted July 08, 2018
PoppyAppletree
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kohlrak
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kohlrak Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Aug 2014
From United States
Posted July 08, 2018
PoppyAppletree
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PoppyAppletree Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Jan 2010
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Posted July 08, 2018
"Others here" =/= "most people". These forums represent a small fraction of a specific niche of a particular demographic. I don't think you can realistically generalise from the opinions of forumites to those of people at large.
kohlrak
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kohlrak Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Aug 2014
From United States
Posted July 08, 2018
kohlrak: The discussions here on gog about localization and such very much lead me to believe that others here, as a whole, agree with me on this.
PoppyAppletree: "Others here" =/= "most people". These forums represent a small fraction of a specific niche of a particular demographic. I don't think you can realistically generalise from the opinions of forumites to those of people at large. Telika
Registered: Apr 2012
From Switzerland
Posted July 09, 2018
kohlrak: Role reversal is fun, but we should understand the purpose of the characters. Remember how we oppose censorship of content in games, but at the same time there's something similar to be said about taking something and turning it into something else, which is often in the same spirit of censorship.
Let's take for example that we have the wonderful Geralt character. Let's say for a minute that we felt he was too dark, and deserves to have more of a good guy role: because his treatment towards women is inexcusable (or whatever we want to say). So, we should take out that he bangs women completely on a whim and even when he's got a dedicated relationship. Therefore, we've taken this evil, hedonistic womanizer and turned him into a hero. Now, that's censorship, is it not? Is it still censorship if i wrote my own books pretty much copying the story as much as i can legally, except leaving out that little detail? Most people call that censorship, but on the other hand, i'm just reversing how some people would see the character.
Now, what if i were to do another thing, such as taking an actually bad character and "toning them down," like Hades in the Disney Hercules movies? Sure, he's absolutely rotten, but are we not basically censoring his more negative traits? But, let's turn it around entirely. What about if we have something where Satan is construed as a good guy (fighting for chaotic freedom), fighting the evil Yahweh (who struggles to maintain static, totalitarian order)? We're taking a negative character, censoring all that makes him evil, and making him good, to a most extreme censorship, to the degree of role reversal, and that's just censoring the evil of Satan, but totally ignoring that in order to do that, we'd have to censor out Yahweh's arguments in the bible for anarchy, because we can't have God be an evil dictator if he argues that mankind should be free, so we have to, effectively, censor God's good traits, right?
What i think this really comes down to is that if we create a character for a certain purpose, it can easily become tempting to want to corrupt that character if we like these role reversal scenarios, but have a hard time building up our own character to ruin. It's too tempting to ruin someone else's character. On the flip side, we often view this with characters like Earp, to use your example, as OK, because we know Earp was a real person and he sure as hell wasn't exactly the hero his legends made him out to be, because we know he's human (same with David Crockett). So, we feel that his real self was censored, so it's OK to paint him in a bad light however we feel, because we like to believe we're "restoring the original character," when in reality we're just taking the legend of the real person and censoring the legend, which is more or less further censorship, 'cause we don't really know the truth about his dark side (actually, we do to a degree, since there's lots of info on him compared to someone like Aristotle). To make matters worse, the only reason we'd want to go and make someone like Earp evil or crooked is to ride off the success of his legend (and making our own twisted spin), not because we honestly respect the actual person.
Uh. What would be a character change that is NOT censorship, by these standards ? Bad -> Good = censorship, Good -> Bad = not ? Not sure I get it. Let's take for example that we have the wonderful Geralt character. Let's say for a minute that we felt he was too dark, and deserves to have more of a good guy role: because his treatment towards women is inexcusable (or whatever we want to say). So, we should take out that he bangs women completely on a whim and even when he's got a dedicated relationship. Therefore, we've taken this evil, hedonistic womanizer and turned him into a hero. Now, that's censorship, is it not? Is it still censorship if i wrote my own books pretty much copying the story as much as i can legally, except leaving out that little detail? Most people call that censorship, but on the other hand, i'm just reversing how some people would see the character.
Now, what if i were to do another thing, such as taking an actually bad character and "toning them down," like Hades in the Disney Hercules movies? Sure, he's absolutely rotten, but are we not basically censoring his more negative traits? But, let's turn it around entirely. What about if we have something where Satan is construed as a good guy (fighting for chaotic freedom), fighting the evil Yahweh (who struggles to maintain static, totalitarian order)? We're taking a negative character, censoring all that makes him evil, and making him good, to a most extreme censorship, to the degree of role reversal, and that's just censoring the evil of Satan, but totally ignoring that in order to do that, we'd have to censor out Yahweh's arguments in the bible for anarchy, because we can't have God be an evil dictator if he argues that mankind should be free, so we have to, effectively, censor God's good traits, right?
What i think this really comes down to is that if we create a character for a certain purpose, it can easily become tempting to want to corrupt that character if we like these role reversal scenarios, but have a hard time building up our own character to ruin. It's too tempting to ruin someone else's character. On the flip side, we often view this with characters like Earp, to use your example, as OK, because we know Earp was a real person and he sure as hell wasn't exactly the hero his legends made him out to be, because we know he's human (same with David Crockett). So, we feel that his real self was censored, so it's OK to paint him in a bad light however we feel, because we like to believe we're "restoring the original character," when in reality we're just taking the legend of the real person and censoring the legend, which is more or less further censorship, 'cause we don't really know the truth about his dark side (actually, we do to a degree, since there's lots of info on him compared to someone like Aristotle). To make matters worse, the only reason we'd want to go and make someone like Earp evil or crooked is to ride off the success of his legend (and making our own twisted spin), not because we honestly respect the actual person.
Also, Disney's Hades is artificially evil, due to christian cultures being completely utterly 100% unable to grasp that a god of hell could be, like, not satan at all (mind blown).
kohlrak
One Sooty Birb - Available on DLsite.com, not
kohlrak Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Aug 2014
From United States
PoppyAppletree
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PoppyAppletree Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Jan 2010
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Posted July 09, 2018
That's a very recent taboo. Historically people wrote all manner of stories using characters from other works. That's essentially how mythology grows. In actuality, the refusal to give over a character and a story to public domain via an ever-expanded framework of copyright and intellectual property law is quite an odd thing, and has carved out bizarre demarcations about acceptable narratives. Under your definitions, can I call that censorship? The idea that a particular character may only ever be this or that way is very restrictive; applied to your Greek gods example, it's really quite absurd. Myth is tremendously flexible about its details.
Post edited July 09, 2018 by PoppyAppletree
kohlrak
One Sooty Birb - Available on DLsite.com, not
kohlrak Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Aug 2014
From United States
Posted July 09, 2018
kohlrak: That's the point: if it's not your character, you should have respect for it. There's a reason why it's taboo.
PoppyAppletree: That's a very recent taboo. Historically people wrote all manner of stories using characters from other works. That's essentially how mythology grows. In actuality, the refusal to give over a character and a story to public domain via an ever-expanded framework of copyright and intellectual property law is quite an odd thing, and has carved out bizarre demarcations about acceptable narratives. Under your definitions, can I call that censorship? The idea that a particular character may only ever be this or that way is very restrictive; applied to your Greek gods example, it's really quite absurd. Myth is tremendously flexible about its details. i think the better question to ask, rather than what was originally asked is: Why do we need to redefine characters? They're idolized and set and reduced to their importance to their overall role in the narrative. Why swap roles of aphrodite and hades, except to make a story about how one should play to their strengths? Sure, it could be funny or edgy, but you could do the same thing with Sonic the Hedgehog and Bowser, and it'd be just as effective. Why did Abraham Lincoln have to slay vampires instead of George Bush!?
Notice this sounds more like fanfiction that a proper AAA title? If you want to make a game about David Crockett in the role of Leisure Suit Larry, what do you gain? It'd be far more appropriate dressing Larry up as ol' honest Abe instead, since we wouldn't have to explain why we bothered absolutely changing the whole focus of a particular character. See, Larry has to tell the truth while dressed up as Abe, or maybe all he does is lie to women when dressed as Lincoln. Maybe, as Crockett, Larry can appear manlier than he really is, but it all gets shot down when the cap comes off and we realize he's not who he pretends to be. Want a manly character who gets the chicks? Why use David Crockett when we have Duke Nukem or countless others? Is there really anything interesting outside of a 5 minute chuckle, which a "costume party" or something accomplish just as well, if not better?
EDIT: To clarify, the reason myth is flexible with certain details is because those details aren't important to the story, therefore if you have to change an inflexible detail (Hercules' strength, for example), if loosing that detail or quality is not important to the original narrative you're trying to come up with (Samson looses his Hercules-style strength, only to gain it back again, but loosing it is important to the story, not because Samson was strong, but to say why a strong character would loose his strength, but if he doesn't become weak, then use Hercules), then you've totally chosen the wrong characters for your story.
Post edited July 09, 2018 by kohlrak