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Breja: I know some people had a lot of issues with them, but I really liked the cards from the first Witcher. At least it was some decent art.
I kind of liked them myself, but how are they relevant when the topic is porn? It's not like nudity or any sexual content at all equals porn. Witcher games had some sexual elements, but it's not like they showed Geralt ejaculating on Triss' face or anally penetrating her, let alone had such scenes as their main feature.
I regret having entered this discussion and really don't want to continue it, but since I feel your bit about "righteous indignation" was kind of directed at me, I wanted to clarify that imo sexual content doesn't necessarily equal porn.
Considering that most developers of perverted games lack money, it is no surprise that they can't easily make games with a solid aesthetic. Fact of the matter is that being forced underground kept these developers poor, thus they can't devote the money and people needed to make a refined project.

It is bad enough to be a small fish, but add on stigmatization and unrealistic expectations of quality? Even fewer of these developers would grow big enough to make an "B" grade product, let alone AAA.

Don't abandon having standards, but do temper your expectations. It took a long time for indie studios to achieve the quality level we see these days, so you can expect enthusiasts of hentai to start making great products at least a decade from now. They need money, experience, and reputation to form development groups to make great stuff. The important thing is to let them have the opportunity to accumulate these things.
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Breja: I know some people had a lot of issues with them, but I really liked the cards from the first Witcher. At least it was some decent art. And somehow looking at a nice picture felt much more aesthetically pleasing to me than watching CG puppets having the sexual equivalent of uncanny valley.
Come to think of it I'd gladly trade those cards (or rather, I am glad we did) for the "sex scene" with Triss in the elven ruins bath-house (Witcher 2) or in the lighthouse (Witcher 3). Both are very well done artistically imho, and you can feel the sentiment and passion in them (again imho Triss is far more authentic and caring than Yennefer in her love for Geralt), with some comic elements to boot sometimes, like an elf commenting on how you can still hear moanings of passion from elvish ghosts in the ruins if you listen long enough, then a dwarf actually hearing some echos of Triss IIRC :P.
Post edited September 04, 2021 by WinterSnowfall
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WinterSnowfall: If they had an open position for a mocap actor of f**** animation, would you apply? :P
With my CV I don't think I'd bother.

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Breja: I know some people had a lot of issues with them, but I really liked the cards from the first Witcher. At least it was some decent art.
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morolf: I kind of liked them myself, but how are they relevant when the topic is porn?
I wanted an example of decent art in erotic context in a game to juxtapose with the crappy look of most porn games. Couldn't really think of a better example.

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Breja: I know some people had a lot of issues with them, but I really liked the cards from the first Witcher. At least it was some decent art. And somehow looking at a nice picture felt much more aesthetically pleasing to me than watching CG puppets having the sexual equivalent of uncanny valley.
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WinterSnowfall: Come to think of it I'd gladly trade those cards (or rather, I am glad we did) for the "sex scene" with Triss in the elven ruins bath-house (Witcher 2) or in the lighthouse (Witcher 3). Both are very artistically done imho, and you can feel the sentiment and passion in them (again imho Triss is far more authentic and caring than Yennefer in her love for Geralt), with some comic elements to boot sometimes, like an elf commenting on how you can still hear moanings of passion from elvish ghosts in the ruins if you listen long enough, then a dwarf actually hearing some echos of Triss IIRC :P.
I definitely did not consider it an upgrade in W2. I don't think graphics got good enough for that stuff to not feel awkward untill the third game, and even then... I agree the cards would not have worked in that game anymore, but honestly watching sex scenes even in 3 left me just kind of indifferent. I don't know. It's a beautiful game. I spent a lot of time in Witcher 3 just finding nice spots to watch sunsets from. But the sex scenes? Just... meh.
Post edited September 04, 2021 by Breja
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Breja: but honestly watching sex scenes even in 3 left me just kind of indifferent. I don't know. It's a beautiful game. I spent a lot of time in Witcher 3 just finding nice spots to watch sunsets from. But the sex scenes? Just... meh.
Don't worry, the definitive remaster is coming out soon and the sex scenes will now have RTX! I'm sure that will improve things dramatically (at least according to Nvidia :P).
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WinterSnowfall: Don't worry, the definitive remaster is coming out soon and the sex scenes will now have RTX!
There's a pun to be made here but I can't quite get it. The RTX scenes will have sex? Nah... damn it.
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Breja: There's a pun to be made here but I can't quite get it. The RTX scenes will have sex? Nah... damn it.
Arty sex on :P.
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Sabin_Stargem: Considering that most developers of perverted games lack money, it is no surprise that they can't easily make games with a solid aesthetic. Fact of the matter is that being forced underground kept these developers poor, thus they can't devote the money and people needed to make a refined project.
I disagree here here. Static art (like most VNs) just needs skill and indeed there is the odd diamond buried in the muck. And nobody can tell me that companies like Illusion lack for money with products like Honey Select which are indeed AAA porn game productions.

I think the discrepancy is still that it's somehow cool to graphically rip your enemies entrails out of their body with all kinds of tools but it's inexplicably *yuck* to see people have fun with their primary and secondary sexual properties which makes genres keep apart. I think Witcher and CP77 did a lot to mend this, as did impressive story telling pieces like Saya No Uta from the other side - but it's still a long way to go. It's weird that for instance in literature this isn't a problem (explicit content from Goethe to modern times, at least in German), but in visual media like games and movies (Remember Eyes Wide Shut?) it's still kind of taboo.
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amok: the problem, though, is who decide what is or what is not art? For example Tracy Emin's bed, Carl Andre's 'Bricks', Damine Hirst;s 'Mother and Child'. Piet Mondrian's 'Composition in Yellow' / 'Composition in red', David Buliuk's "Dedication to Cezanne', Robert Mapplethorpe's 'The Perfect Moment' and so on ans so forth. Who is the arbiter of what is or what is not art?

edit - not to mention the whole Dadaist movement....
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§pec†re: Where is the quality in the examples you've given?

My point was people equating art which is rubbish compared to something more worthy otherwise you just end up with people calling everything art.

Of course you can turn that argument on it's head and say that if everything is art then nothing is.
Perhaps I should buy a ball of nothing and put it on a little table and claim it is art then charge millions for it on that basis.
the point, which you evaded, was - who decide what is or is not art? who decide what is 'worthy' and what does 'worthy' mean anyway? do you decide this? by the way, each of my examples are clasiffied as both worthy and groundbreaking pieces of art
Post edited September 04, 2021 by amok
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amok: the point, which you evaded, was - who decide what is or is not art? who decide what is 'worthy' and what does 'worthy mean anyway? do you decide this? by the way, each e of my examples are clasiffied as both worthy and groundbreaking pieces of art
Not to mention the (in)famous https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fettecke
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DrazilT: I like to suggest that GOG not carry pornographic games. To elaborate I'll will start by presenting my hypocrisy, that is that I already carry this game in my Steam library. However the propriatory format that is Steam, has it locked behind an adult only 'compartment' of Steam, as redtube is to youtube.
Redtube is not a 'compartment' of Youtube, it is a separate entity. You might be thinking of Youtube Red, but that's light years away from Redtube. Youtube Red is a service that just disables ads.
Post edited September 04, 2021 by J Lo
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toxicTom: I disagree here here. Static art (like most VNs) just needs skill and indeed there is the odd diamond buried in the muck. And nobody can tell me that companies like Illusion lack for money with products like Honey Select which are indeed AAA porn game productions.
Static art not only needs skill, but the developers still need time - which costs money. Every day spent on writing dialogue, and preparing art to match, is going to cost a fair bit of money for each person involved. Further, a VN needs extensive translation and according cost if they leave their own lands. The point is, VNs are not a easy medium to work with. A hentai game, be it with "standard" or "VN" gameplay, isn't trivial to create. No different from a traditional game.

Further, I am not talking about Honey Select. There are many smaller Circles in Japan and upstart developers in the west who are now learning the ropes of being a viable company. Many of them appeared in only the last 15ish years, and most of them folded. Unlike your standard indie, they could not operate in "public" venues like Steam. That means less money, more difficulty finding and recruiting talent into lasting companies, and so on.

There are people who say that hentai games lack artistry or whatnot, therefore the medium should be banned. Thus, hentai developers are not able to obtain the means to become artisans. This is deliberate catch-22 by the moralists, meant to prevent perverted people from having a livelihood, and the opportunity, to create explicit masterpieces.

I believe that hentai is just as worthy of respect as any other medium, but all mediums need resources to fulfill their potential. The "starving artist", is a notion meant to kill art in the cradle. My argument is that ability is strongly impacted by financial resources, and many hentai developers simply couldn't secure enough fiscal support. That means many h-games suck, simply because developers can't devote as much time to mastering the craft.
Post edited September 04, 2021 by Sabin_Stargem
Definitely a genre that could benefit from motion controls, or even better Microsoft Kinect. Me and a mate came up with the most awesome idea years ago when Kinect came out: use the Kinect sensor so the game can recognize all the sexual positions of the Kuma Sutra for example- finally a co-op game that you can play with your wife/girlfriend. Imagine the achievements. Imagine the pride when you accidentally stumble upon the secret "rusty trombone" achievement and have it attached to your gamer profile forever after.
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Breja: This is probably derailing the thread from all the rightous indignation about how porn is corrupting our civilisation and summoning the great old ones, but... You know what actual problem I have with most (all?) porn games I see? They all tend to be ugly as hell. Bad CG animation of f**** or some anime stuff that look like free flash games, furry visual novels about pirates with art that looks like it's from someone's fetish deviantart page or... well, whatever Succubus is.

I know some people had a lot of issues with them, but I really liked the cards from the first Witcher. At least it was some decent art. And somehow looking at a nice picture felt much more aesthetically pleasing to me than watching CG puppets having the sexual equivalent of uncanny valley.
succubus is a action game with porn in it. (because you guessed it you play a succubus)
i looking forward to play it soon always been a fan of hell theme games.
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Lucumo: Did you mistype the part in the brackets? Because there are definitely non-German stores that have a separated non-adult and adult section. Of course, if for you that entails providing actual proof of your age, then no clue because to enter the adult section in those stores you only have to say "sure" when the pop-up arrives asking you whether you are 18+ years old.
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MarkoH01: Exactly, I meant a special section with actual age control. It did not even come to my mind to mention those stupid "I am 18" checks that imo aren't even worth the programming that has gone into them.

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Lucumo: As for no reason to sell the games uncut...it's a mess currently. I mean, on Steam apparently anything goes and still you have those three possibilities. Granted, the paid-for patches do make sense because it's extra money for greedy publishers. They wouldn't wanna get rid of those unless they get pressured by customers.
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MarkoH01: I meant that there is no reason to sell censored games in the case of those games for which the publishers also provided a free patch. In case of those few games in which the publishers actually demand additional money I guess it would be handled like a basic and deluxe edition so more money by selling both.
Aren't those checks for 18+ just there to satisfy some weird legal requirement? Though, I agree. The only good part about them is to see where you will land if you deny the question (it's funny when they redirect you to some actual website for kids).

Yeah, that's why I called it a mess. I think it initially came to be when Steam didn't allow adult games on their platform some years ago. However, also some years ago, they started allowing uncut 18+ games, so technically, ever since then, the free patches have been obsolete.

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Breja: Not that this has anything to do with anything really, but honestly I mostly hated her and eventually near the end she just sort of fucked off and left because I wasn't having none of her shit anymore and I replaced her in the squad with a dog and things were nicer immediately.
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WinterSnowfall: I wasn't commenting on her character, only her looks :P. T'was a sad day when I picked the devout cleric as my romancing option due to lack of better alternatives. At least you could appeal to Leliana's rogue instincts along the way.
I think she was quite ugly...but I also wouldn't consider myself a DA:O fan since I really didn't like the game, despite RPGs being my favorite genre basically.