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LegoDnD: That's the spirit, death to the MMO! Making LotR Online into LotR Offline would be the best thing to happen to the Tolkien Fandom.
Nah, it would still be boring as all hell. That whole gameplay model is unsalvagable. We need a good LOTR single player game designed from the ground up to be exactly that. But seeing how Tolkien's works are doing when it comes to adaptations in recent times, I think we're better off trying to 100% Lego LotR.
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Knightspace: I love this shit, of excusing big corporations fucking over paying customers. We've been throught this over and over again, like with Darkspore and other titles, yet people still defend the corpos. Amazing.
I don't think he's 'defending' it so much as pointing out the obvious - I also wouldn't be surprised if a lot of The Crew's content was licensed for only 10 years, given other 2014 racing games releases include:-

- Asphalt Overdrive (2014) "Gameloft's servers for this game are now offline and as a result, the game refuses to go past the initial loading screen."
- GRID Autosport (2014) was delisted from all digital storefronts on July 1, 2020.
- F1 2014 was delisted from all digital storefronts on March 11, 2022.
- Forza Horizon 2 (2014) was shut down in 2018 after just 4 years.
- NASCAR '14 has been removed from Steam, probably for license expiration reasons.

Merely commenting that time-limited licensing (an absurd 'disposable by design' concept from the start) may be a complication isn't "defending corpos", simply the bottom line takeaway that the only way of keeping racing / sports games with legally expirable licensed content is to push for a DRM-Free / offline friendly copy before they expire. Not coast along with "I'm happy with this triple DRM'd online-only by design game all the time it's supported" complacency (the "Stop Killing Games" apparent stance on DRM in general given some wording in the FAQ on their website) then only complain about the obvious after the point at which it gets pulled but can't be legally re-released DRM-Free anyway without expensive re-licensing of all the content (which publishers won't do when that money can buy almost half of a new game).

Anything that raises awareness of game preservation is good, but I too am genuinely surprised the campaigners aren't "joining the dots" better in figuring out the "why's" behind the "what's". Game preservation is the right war to fight but "nothing we are seeking would interfere with any (online only) business activity whatsoever whilst it's still supported" is probably the wrong hill to die on if they actually want to fix the problem, (because the solution of 1. Requiring DRM-Free versions be issued *before* anything licensed expires, 2. Opposing time-limited licensed contracts, and 3. Requiring MMO's to be more offline friendly by design) obviously does involve "interfering" in online-only game design and licensing contracts both before it's even released (during the design phase) and whilst it's still under support). Yet their FAQ confusedly says that "disagree" with forcing the same thing they simultaneously claim they want to force (elsewhere on the site)... In the face of that, many of us still no real idea what they think their actual legal solution is in practise. Even GOG's "FCKDRM" website had more clarity / consistency in calling out the actual problem (not just one symptom).
Post edited April 08, 2024 by AB2012
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Breja: Nah, it would still be boring as all hell. That whole gameplay model is unsalvagable. We need a good LOTR single player game designed from the ground up to be exactly that. But seeing how Tolkien's works are doing when it comes to adaptations in recent times, I think we're better off trying to 100% Lego LotR.
Fine, we can just mod Lego LotR to have LotR Online's map. I...I just want big maps, ok? Is that too much to ask?
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Knightspace: I love this shit, of excusing big corporations fucking over paying customers. We've been throught this over and over again, like with Darkspore and other titles, yet people still defend the corpos. Amazing.

Maybe the game should never have been built like that, it's one thing. Second is that it would absolutely be possible to make it singleplayer only, it was just an arbitrary thing to need online connection to access the campaign,

But whatever, let's just let corporations do whatever the fuck they want, it can't end badly, right?
1. I was pointing at the point the creator of this campaign has simply ignored. If i would be mean I would say on purpose.
That is no defending the company, that is a simple "do your fucking homework".

2. If you mean, the game should have never used original vehicles, yeah, that could have prevented the shutdown...
I would argue, that the game would never be as big without original cars though.

3. It was a persistent online world with several instances and several players per instance.
For offline access to the campaign the game would have to be build differently from its core (idea).


And because you want to nip pick.
The campaign speaks about 12mil people screwed over.
I am very sure the game didn't had DAU, WAU, MAU or even YAU numbers even close to that in the past years. Most simply have walked away for the new games of the series.
Because if that would be the active user number, the game would never have been shoot down, because it would be as big as WoW...
Not even sure if that first part of the series sold 12mil copies. I'd argue, that is more like the number for the series...

And another thing.
If I start to play any kind of online game, I do so in the knowledge it won't be forever.
If that game is using 3rd party licences, see above but even stronger

I mean, could we start with something smaller?
Like normal games mandatory becoming freeware after like 20 years or so?
Before we start to force somebody to rebuild the own MMO type game or even to keep it running, basically burning money.

Coming up with this kind of campaign basically AFTER all licence contracts have ended and AFTER the game has been shoot down.
For sure the game won't be back.
As someone who has been shouting from the rooftops since 2004, "Stop buying online activated single-player games!" and was ridiculed in every single gaming forum for doing so, it would be easy for me to take a side here.

Instead, wouldn't it be cool if GOG worked with Ubi to re-license any cars or music and create and release a new single-player GOG version of "The Crew," kind of like how they did it with "Alpha Protocol"?

Sure, it would likely be kind of expensive, what with licensing all those cars. But it would be a huge PR win for both GOG and Ubi if they pulled it off.
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GilesHabibula: Instead, wouldn't it be cool if GOG worked with Ubi to re-license any cars or music and create and release a new single-player GOG version of "The Crew," kind of like how they did it with "Alpha Protocol"?
No way Ubisoft wants to do that. There's already the crew 2 and the crew 3 (motorfest). If they wanted to do a single player game they don't need GOG's help. They are very capable of doing it themselves.

I can understand the desire for multiplayer games. When you look at lists of most played games it's dominated by multiplayer online titles.
Post edited April 09, 2024 by EverNightX
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Knightspace: I love this shit, of excusing big corporations fucking over paying customers. We've been throught this over and over again, like with Darkspore and other titles, yet people still defend the corpos. Amazing.
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AB2012: I don't think he's 'defending' it so much as pointing out the obvious - I also wouldn't be surprised if a lot of The Crew's content was licensed for only 10 years, given other 2014 racing games releases include:-

- Asphalt Overdrive (2014) "Gameloft's servers for this game are now offline and as a result, the game refuses to go past the initial loading screen."
- GRID Autosport (2014) was delisted from all digital storefronts on July 1, 2020.
- F1 2014 was delisted from all digital storefronts on March 11, 2022.
- Forza Horizon 2 (2014) was shut down in 2018 after just 4 years.
- NASCAR '14 has been removed from Steam, probably for license expiration reasons.

Merely commenting that time-limited licensing (an absurd 'disposable by design' concept from the start) may be a complication isn't "defending corpos", simply the bottom line takeaway that the only way of keeping racing / sports games with legally expirable licensed content is to push for a DRM-Free / offline friendly copy before they expire. Not coast along with "I'm happy with this triple DRM'd online-only by design game all the time it's supported" complacency (the "Stop Killing Games" apparent stance on DRM in general given some wording in the FAQ on their website) then only complain about the obvious after the point at which it gets pulled but can't be legally re-released DRM-Free anyway without expensive re-licensing of all the content (which publishers won't do when that money can buy almost half of a new game).

Anything that raises awareness of game preservation is good, but I too am genuinely surprised the campaigners aren't "joining the dots" better in figuring out the "why's" behind the "what's". Game preservation is the right war to fight but "nothing we are seeking would interfere with any (online only) business activity whatsoever whilst it's still supported" is probably the wrong hill to die on if they actually want to fix the problem, (because the solution of 1. Requiring DRM-Free versions be issued *before* anything licensed expires, 2. Opposing time-limited licensed contracts, and 3. Requiring MMO's to be more offline friendly by design) obviously does involve "interfering" in online-only game design and licensing contracts both before it's even released (during the design phase) and whilst it's still under support). Yet their FAQ confusedly says that "disagree" with forcing the same thing they simultaneously claim they want to force (elsewhere on the site)... In the face of that, many of us still no real idea what they think their actual legal solution is in practise. Even GOG's "FCKDRM" website had more clarity / consistency in calling out the actual problem (not just one symptom).
Let us be honest though. I think we can all agree that Sega set the bar for Nascar with "Daytona USA" and anything else is likely absolute trash by comparison. EA could never HOPE to be as talented. Criterion doesn't count as they weren't EA.
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Sarang: Let us be honest though. I think we can all agree that Sega set the bar for Nascar with "Daytona USA" and anything else is likely absolute trash by comparison. EA could never HOPE to be as talented. Criterion doesn't count as they weren't EA.
I dunno, I think the Papyrus design group set the bar for NASCAR, though they're sadly defunct now.
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GoG should be fully behind Ross on this effort. In fact a lot of companies in the habit of preserving or restoring older classics should be giving their support right about now. We've already lost a ton in this space, and for me personally, BattleForge stings the hardest. I loved that game and then EA killed it without much fanfare. This happens very frequently.

Sure, it'd be nice to bring back everything we've lost, but I think stopping this hemorrhage is of higher priority. If nothing else, these games should be patched with single-player prior to being killed. If there is not enough development resources at the end, then it should have been in place from the very beginning. The current state is completely unacceptable. Places like GoG won't even be able to bring them back after their server stuff is fully removed.

The more tractions this gets from major companies the better. That's why I say again, GoG should be at the forefront of supporting Ross in this endeavor.
April updates on campaign to stop game destruction

"Lots of updates on the campaign! UK petition open! Australia petition probably open soon! Research help wanted! Australian law firm hired! Talking to EU members of Parliament!

Link to UK Petition:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/659071/

Link to outdated list of game shutdowns:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vaNfqOv3rStBQ4_lR-dwGb8DGPhCJpRDF-q7gqtdhGA/

Link to 90s style ads for stopkillinggames.com by jakediditagain:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkYFPbl4uz0&list=PLMIM-wsZB0tPbwZcaS_8DVtT1H2NWoogP&index=2

https://stopkillinggames.com"
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Swedrami: "Lots of updates on the campaign! UK petition open! Australia petition probably open soon! Research help wanted! Australian law firm hired! Talking to EU members of Parliament!
Australian petition is now live.
https://www.aph.gov.au/e-petitions/petition/EN6080

Closes 20 May 2024 11:59 PM (AEST)
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UnashamedWeeb: link
Canadian one has been up for a week now with 5000+ signatures - https://www.ourcommons.ca/petitions/en/Petition/Details?Petition=e-4965

Closes September 5, 2024, at 9:33 a.m. (EDT)

Literally filled out the form and verified my email in 2 mins.

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Swedrami: snip
Nice, an update from the UK gov't:

Government responded

This response was given on 2 May 2024

Those selling games must comply with UK consumer law. They must provide clear information and allow continued access to games if sold on the understanding that they will remain playable indefinitely.

The Government recognises recent concerns raised by video games users regarding the long-term operability of purchased products.

Consumers should be aware that there is no requirement in UK law compelling software companies and providers to support older versions of their operating systems, software or connected products. There may be occasions where companies make commercial decisions based on the high running costs of maintaining older servers for video games that have declining user bases. However, video games sellers must comply with existing consumer law, including the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA) and the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (CPRs).

The CPRs require information to consumers to be clear and correct, and prohibit commercial practices which through false information or misleading omissions cause the average consumer to make a different choice, for example, to purchase goods or services they would not otherwise have purchased. The regulations prohibit commercial practices which omit or hide information which the average consumer needs to make an informed choice, and prohibits traders from providing material information in an unclear, unintelligible, ambiguous or untimely manner. If consumers are led to believe that a game will remain playable indefinitely for certain systems, despite the end of physical support, the CPRs may require that the game remains technically feasible (for example, available offline) to play under those circumstances.

The CPRs are enforced by Trading Standards and the Competition and Markets Authority. If consumers believe that there has been a breach of these regulations, they should report the matter in the first instance to the Citizens Advice consumer helpline on 0808 223 1133 (www.citizensadvice.org.uk). People living in Scotland should contact Advice Direct Scotland on 0808 164 6000 (www.consumeradvice.scot). Both helplines offer a free service advising consumers on their rights and how best to take their case forward. The helplines will refer complaints to Trading Standards services where appropriate. Consumers can also pursue private redress through the courts where a trader has provided misleading information on a product.

The CRA gives consumers important rights when they make a contract with a trader for the supply of digital content. This includes requiring digital content to be of satisfactory quality, fit for a particular purpose and as described by the seller. It can be difficult and expensive for businesses to maintain dedicated support for old software, particularly if it needs to interact with modern hardware, apps and websites, but if software is being offered for sale that is not supported by the provider, then this should be made clear.

If the digital content does not meet these quality rights, the consumer has the right to a repair or replacement of the digital content. If a repair or replacement is not possible, or does not fix the problem, then the consumer will be entitled to some money back or a price reduction which can be up to 100% of the cost of the digital content. These rights apply to intangible digital content like computer software or a PC game, as well as digital content in a tangible form like a physical copy of a video game. The CRA has a time limit of up to six years after a breach of contract during which a consumer can take legal action.

The standards outlined above apply to digital content where there is a contractual right of the trader or a third party to modify or update the digital content. In practice, this means that a trader or third party can upgrade, fix, enhance and improve the features of digital content so long as it continues to match any description given by the trader and continues to conform with any pre-contract information including main characteristics, functionality and compatibility provided by the trader, unless varied by express agreement.

Consumers should also be aware that while there is a statutory right for goods (including intangible digital content) to be of a satisfactory quality, that will only be breached if they are not of the standard which a reasonable person would consider to be satisfactory, taking into account circumstances including the price and any description given. For example, a manufacturer’s support for a mobile phone is likely to be withdrawn as they launch new models. It will remain usable but without, for example, security updates, and over time some app developers may decide to withdraw support.

Department Culture, Media & Sport
Post edited May 15, 2024 by UnashamedWeeb
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LegoDnD: I reject your user agreement and substitute my own.
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EverNightX: LOL. You don't even know what the word agreement means.
How would you describe an "agreement" that can be arbitrarily modified by one party at any point in the future, and if you choose not to agree you no longer have access to what you paid for?
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lupineshadow: principle not principal
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amok: no, principal also means "the first" or "the most important" or "the main point", so a principal point is the most important point.

edit - just to clarify: A prinicple is a fundation in a belif system, you belive this to be true because of these principles.

A principal has several meanings, it can either mean "the most important" point among several (as above). or it can mean a position something or someone can have, usually a key position.

You can have a principal principle.

Breja used it wrongly, he was talking about a principle. But without more context, the way EverNightX used the term, it could be correct. the phrase "weather you should be able to tell others what they can and can't do with things they own" could be seen as either the most important point, but it can also be seen as the fundation of a belif system.

langauge and words!
Did someone call for a lexicographer? (Rhetorical question; all quotations citing the Concise Oxford 11th Ed.)

principal
n adjective
1 first in order of importance; main.
2 denoting an original sum of money invested or lent.
n noun
1 the most important or senior person in an organization or group. →the head of a school or college. →(in certain professions) a fully qualified practitioner.
2 a sum of money lent or invested, on which interest is paid.
3 a person for whom another acts as an agent or representative. →Law a person directly responsible for a crime.
4 a main rafter supporting purlins.
5 an organ stop sounding a set of pipes typically an octave above the diapason.

DERIVATIVES
principalship noun

ORIGIN
Middle English: via Old French from Latin principalis 'first, original', from princeps, princip- 'first, chief'.

USAGE
On the confusion of principal and principle, see usage at principle [quod vide, infra].

principle
n noun
1 a fundamental truth or proposition serving as the foundation for belief or action. →a rule or belief governing one's personal behaviour. →morally correct behaviour and attitudes: a man of principle.
2 a general scientific theorem or natural law.
3 a fundamental source or basis of something. →a fundamental quality or attribute.
4 Chemistry an active or characteristic constituent of a substance.

PHRASES
in principle in theory.
on principle because of one's adherence to a particular belief.

ORIGIN
Middle English: from Old French, from Latin principium 'source', principia (plural) 'foundations', from princeps, princip- 'first, chief'.

USAGE
Note that principle and principal do not have the same meaning. Principle is normally used as a noun meaning 'a fundamental basis of a system of thought or belief', as in this is one of the basic principles of democracy. Principal, on the other hand, is normally an adjective meaning 'main or most important', as in one of the country's principal cities. As a noun principal refers to the most senior or most important person in an organization: the deputy principal.
I'll see your pedantry and raise one glaring heterographic homophonic homonym: weather is the phenomena of climate; whether is the conjunction expressing choice (and wether is the castrated ram).

→ Back on topic

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UnashamedWeeb: […] Symbolically, this is ultimately about more regulations over video game companies. If a movement like this can't get off the ground, the video games industry is going to keep up with its anti-consumer behaviour because they know they can get away with it over a bunch of lazy and cynic pushovers.
and


This seems to be a febrile argument exploring the difference between the administration of policy (the legal precedent of stare decisis, which has been grandfathered into modern law from Roman times, and without which law would be very noisy — by which I refer to the phenomenon explained in Daniel Kahneman, Olivier Sibony, & CS Sunstein (HarperCollins, 2021), Noise: a Flaw in Human Judgment) and the policy of administration (whether an EULA can be legally binding when it is in breach of a fundamental principle — okay, a principal principle).

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Strijkbout: If they concoct a licence that goes against the laws of ownership they can explain it to the judge and they stepped in a potential minefield. Because w[h]ether you own a digital copy of a game or a car or a kitchen utensil doesn't make a difference because if a judge judges that Ubisoft is right they risk opening the floodgates of corporations taking away all your rights, car, kitchen utensil, etc. Which is unlikely and which is why Ubisoft's licence is illegal.
Like I said, unless it states it's a lease or rental, which it doesn't, they technically stand no ground.
That has to be proven to the court; there is a clear distinction between tangible real world things and digital copies of intellectual property. Just sayin'.

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AB2012: The problem is, if those behind the campaign read Ubisoft ToS, Steam's 'Subscriber' Agreement, etc, they actually openly admit they are selling game as services & subscriptions that can be closed on a whim, so there's no real "mis-selling" going on. I wish them well, but it ultimately sounds like a group of people who've spend the past couple of decades happily throwing money at triple / quadruple DRM protected games, ignoring all the risks out of convenience, and are only just noticing / caring about it now that they've lost some favourite content personally. The time to "pushback" against 'digital' games being sold as subscriptions was about 20 years ago. The rest is just being "late to the party" of figuring out why DRM & gating single-player content online is obviously bad for game preservation in general...
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Time4Tea: I agree with your comments. This campaign seems to have good intentions, but it also seems misguided. They are essentially trying to outlaw the symptom, rather than the cause of the problem, which is online DRM being injected into video games in the first place.

The games were mortally wounded at the point when the online DRM was injected. It just took them 20 years to die.
I believe the idiom is "died of wounds (inflicted earlier)".

Oh, I also concur with your concurrences.
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scientiae: snip
Call me an idiot, but can someone explain what he's on about? What's the point of all those difficult words if no one can understand you?

If you paid for a digital game with always-online-DRM, you should expect the game to be available offline when servers shut down. This should be true, reasonable, and fair regardless of whatever the EULA says at the beginning. If not, they should be appropriately compensated by some refund as per the UK gov't response.

Ultimately, this is about what's fair for consumers. You know, the people that should be protected and not multi-billion dollar companies that controls how the content is delivered to you. They shouldn't have to read paragraphs of video game legalese and dicitonaryese just to weed out significant deceptive clauses like that hidden in the fine print during their time off work. You're out of your mind if you expect us to do so.
Post edited May 15, 2024 by UnashamedWeeb