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General discussionSteam now offers refunds, and I'm out of a job(472 posts)(472 posts)
(472 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted July 24, 2015
BTW, Jeff Vogel just posted an article about it yesterday:

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.be/2015/07/indie-games-refunds-terror-and-taking.html
Posted July 24, 2015
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jefequeso: The Moon Sliver:
23k copies sold
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Leroux: I still can't get over the 23k - that's more copies than most novel authors will ever sell of their books! Hats off for that! :)

I'd probably still freak out about the 169 who returned the game. Why?! How could they!?! :D
One thing to keep in mind about that number is that the game has been on sale a LOT, for a significant discount. I think that has a lot to do with the high numbers. I'll be running sales for The Music Machine after awhile, as well.

People who refund games are also able to leave comments about why they refunded it. Those are fun :P.
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catpower1980: BTW, Jeff Vogel just posted an article about it yesterday:

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.be/2015/07/indie-games-refunds-terror-and-taking.html
Now that there are solid numbers showing that my and others' panic was for nothing, I'm wholeheartedly behind the refund system. I think it's going to do a lot to help clean up Steam.

I'm interested that The Music Machine has a higher refund rate than The Moon Sliver. I suspect it has to do with the price point, since I think most people (including myself) agree that it's easily the better of the two games.
Post edited July 24, 2015 by jefequeso
Posted July 24, 2015
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jefequeso: Now that there are solid numbers showing that my and others' panic was for nothing, I'm wholeheartedly behind the refund system. I think it's going to do a lot to help clean up Steam.
I heard a strange rumour regarding refunds during the Arkham Knight fiasco. Specifically, that Warner Bros was losing money on each refund issued, because when Steam refunded a copy, they would keep their 30% cut and charge it on the publisher. Since you are a developer/publisher on Steam, can you confirm whether there is any validity to this rumour or if it is complete bollocks?
Post edited July 24, 2015 by Grargar
Posted July 24, 2015
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jefequeso: Now that there are solid numbers showing that my and others' panic was for nothing, I'm wholeheartedly behind the refund system. I think it's going to do a lot to help clean up Steam.
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Grargar: I heard a strange rumour regarding refunds during the Arkham Knight fiasco. Specifically, that Warner Bros was losing money on each refund issued, because when Steam refunded a copy, they would keep their 30% cut and charge it on the publisher. Since you are a developer/publisher on Steam, can you confirm whether there is any validity to this rumour or if it is complete bollocks?
As far as I'm aware, that's completely false. I'm not even sure how that would work, unless they deduct it from your monthly sales of other copies, which seems questionably legal to me (because I know a lot about law /sarcasm).

I can't say for certain, though. My pricing has fluctuated too much this month. I don't see anyone mentioning it on the steamworks forums though. I have a feeling if that's actually how Valve was doing things there would be an uproar.
Posted July 24, 2015
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jefequeso: As far as I'm aware, that's completely false. I'm not even sure how that would work, unless they deduct it from your monthly sales of other copies, which seems questionably legal to me (because I know a lot about law /sarcasm).

I can't say for certain, though. My pricing has fluctuated too much this month. I don't see anyone mentioning it on the steamworks forums though. I have a feeling if that's actually how Valve was doing things there would be an uproar.
Yeah, considering how every gaming site and their dog made their own "Refunds=Doom for Indie developers" article, I would be very surprised if they decided to stay silent on something like that (which would actually be a legit reason for uproar).
Post edited July 24, 2015 by Grargar
Posted July 24, 2015
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jefequeso: As far as I'm aware, that's completely false. I'm not even sure how that would work, unless they deduct it from your monthly sales of other copies, which seems questionably legal to me (because I know a lot about law /sarcasm).

I can't say for certain, though. My pricing has fluctuated too much this month. I don't see anyone mentioning it on the steamworks forums though. I have a feeling if that's actually how Valve was doing things there would be an uproar.
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Grargar: Yeah, considering how every gaming site and their dog made their own "Refunds=Doom for Indie developers" article, I would be very surprised if they decided to stay silent on something like that (which would actually be a legit reason for uproar).
Agreed.

You know that some indie devs actually removed their games from Steam after the refund announcement?
Posted July 24, 2015
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jefequeso: You know that some indie devs actually removed their games from Steam after the refund announcement?
Really? I hadn't heard of that. Did they do it temporarily? If not, where are they going to sell their games from now on?
Post edited July 24, 2015 by Grargar
Posted July 24, 2015
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jefequeso: You know that some indie devs actually removed their games from Steam after the refund announcement?
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Grargar: Really? I hadn't heard of that. Did they do it temporarily? If not, where are they going to sell their games from now on?
I actually might be mistaken. I thought Potatoman Seeks the Troof had been taken down and uploaded to Gamejolt for free, but now I see it's back.

I think there was one other game I was looking for that disappeared around the time refunds went live, but at the moment I can't remember what it was.

Might want to check before you believe me on this, it seems :P
Posted July 24, 2015
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jefequeso: Might want to check before you believe me on this, it seems :P
Sometime. :P
Posted July 24, 2015
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jefequeso: One thing to keep in mind about that number is that the game has been on sale a LOT, for a significant discount. I think that has a lot to do with the high numbers. I'll be running sales for The Music Machine after awhile, as well.
Yeah, but it's an impressive number nevertheless. I mean even if just 10% of those people actually give your game a try, that's still a big audience already. Of course, you've also sampled the downside of that attention already, but think about all the people who didn't complain or even love and praise your work. :)
Post edited July 24, 2015 by Leroux
Posted July 25, 2015
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jefequeso: I'm interested that The Music Machine has a higher refund rate than The Moon Sliver. I suspect it has to do with the price point, since I think most people (including myself) agree that it's easily the better of the two games.
In addition to pricing point, a couple other possibilities about the difference in refund rate between The Music Machine and The Moon Silver:

* The Music Machine with its unique style and high rating (92-97%) might be a game that people have higher expectations in and are interested in trying out right after buying, whereas The Moon Silver had been on the market for a while before the new refund policy and people purchasing it might have different expectations going into it (70-75% rating) or are simply putting it on a backlog to simmer beyond a 2-week period.

* The release of The Music Machine coincided pretty closely with the new refund policy, so there may have been an effect where the newness of the game and the newness of the policy had some sort of correlative effect due to the timing of the release and both being in the news / promoted close together.

* The sample size between The Music Machine and The Moon Silver are quite different, so I'm not sure if the small percentage difference in refund rate is particularly high in statistical significance.
Posted July 25, 2015
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jefequeso: I'm interested that The Music Machine has a higher refund rate than The Moon Sliver. I suspect it has to do with the price point, since I think most people (including myself) agree that it's easily the better of the two games.
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the.kuribo: In addition to pricing point, a couple other possibilities about the difference in refund rate between The Music Machine and The Moon Silver:

* The Music Machine with its unique style and high rating (92-97%) might be a game that people have higher expectations in and are interested in trying out right after buying, whereas The Moon Silver had been on the market for a while before the new refund policy and people purchasing it might have different expectations going into it (70-75% rating) or are simply putting it on a backlog to simmer beyond a 2-week period.

* The release of The Music Machine coincided pretty closely with the new refund policy, so there may have been an effect where the newness of the game and the newness of the policy had some sort of correlative effect due to the timing of the release and both being in the news / promoted close together.

* The sample size between The Music Machine and The Moon Silver are quite different, so I'm not sure if the small percentage difference in refund rate is particularly high in statistical significance.
Very good points.
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jefequeso: One thing to keep in mind about that number is that the game has been on sale a LOT, for a significant discount. I think that has a lot to do with the high numbers. I'll be running sales for The Music Machine after awhile, as well.
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Leroux: Yeah, but it's an impressive number nevertheless. I mean even if just 10% of those people actually give your game a try, that's still a big audience already. Of course, you've also sampled the downside of that attention already, but think about all the people who didn't complain or even love and praise your work. :)
Yeah, I'm still amazed that many people have bought my game. It's actually quite frightening! :O
Post edited July 25, 2015 by jefequeso
Posted July 25, 2015
To be honest, if it wasn't for refunds being a thing, I highly doubt Arkham Knight would have been taken down to be fixed, so I think what I said still sort of stands. I told you you had nothing to worry about too much, jefe. ;)
I know you're not the type to slap and dash things together, and even if your games aren't my taste, to the people that enjoy them, you'll still come out ahead, amigo. Salut!
Posted July 25, 2015
low rated
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jefequeso: Now that there are solid numbers showing that my and others' panic was for nothing, I'm wholeheartedly behind the refund system. I think it's going to do a lot to help clean up Steam.
Sure it was "panic" - not the blatant bias, cynicism, or paranoia of a reactionary attention seeker:

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jefequeso: I don't ever underestimate the ignorant desire of certain people to "stick it to the man" when they find a loophole. And in this situation, I'm "the man."
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xSinghx: I don't ever underestimate the ignorant (and paranoid) desire of certain people to "see the worst in others."
Also from 15+ pages ago:

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xSinghx: ...as for this issue of Steam refund abuse, well it's a non-issue isn't it. Complete propaganda. There simply is no abuse you can point to and yet every story discussing the policy of refunds and people like you imbibing this shlock propagandist message about a devious public ready to exploit the poor small businessman at any opportunity are reactionaries to nothing.

In addition this issue has at least two precedents including GoG and Origin that offer refunds and you don't see developers running for their lives. Why? Well obviously because again it's a non-issue. Not only that but as many in this thread have already pointed out if someone wants to steal a game without paying for it, torrenting is a vastly superior option than going through the headache of Steam which would hold and possibly keep your money. You and others like you can try and fabricate another side to this story but there simply isn't one - other than a fiction you...are spinning.
And just to beat a dead horse:

Devs Speak Out on Steam Refunds

Steam Refunds

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xSinghx: There's...no evidence or precident of abuse.Reactionary idiots deserve to be treated as such. There is as much substance to this issue of refunds as the idea of voter fraud.
Post edited July 25, 2015 by xSinghx
Posted July 25, 2015
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jefequeso: snip
Glad you are reassured now. And glad you are humble enough to come in and admit this. Cheers.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionSteam now offers refunds, and I'm out of a job(472 posts)(472 posts)
(472 posts)