It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
avatar
jefequeso: I'll tell you what's wrong: I just managed to start making a living at a job I've dreamed about since I was 12, and just started being able to pay my monthly bills, and JUST STARTED making progress toward allowing my wife to quit her draining, stressful retail job that's making her life a living hell, and I'm scared all that might disappear just because my games happen to fall into a potential loophole that make them free to play for the same people that were just leaving negative meme reviews on my store page and trying to trick me into sending them free keys by pretending to be Raedwulfgamer.

You can lecture me all you want about my worries beng unfounded, but don't you DARE make judgements about my character, and presume to be able to lecture me about "you shouldn't make money off of something you love."

I'm as baffled as you are. Maybe someone linked this thread on Reddit or something like that.
avatar
itchy01ca01: Ill take back the judgments against your character. Those were uncalled for.
Some of the other stuff I have said has had merit, even though I came across as a complete douche.
You're far beyond just "coming across" as a complete douche.
avatar
jefequeso: Heck, on The Music Machine's store page I use the phrase "narrative-focused" at least 50 dozen times, and say it's like The Vanishing of Ethan Carter. I' pretty open about what it is.
avatar
AlexY: Then you should be pretty open about people not liking it and wanting a refund.
I am. If they honestly believe they got something different than what they paid for:

http://steamcommunity.com/games/359040/announcements/detail/178236874805115760
avatar
LesterKnight99: Hey. Stop.

Think about this: if you were a developer, and independent, and somebody refunded your work which you put many weeks, months, or even years into, would you be so quick to be sarcastic? would you laugh it off?
avatar
LiquidOxygen80: Listen, I'm just going to say this and I in no way mean this as a critique or a jab at jefe at all. Sometimes, it doesn't matter how hard you work, if your game is not good. I repeat, this does not mean anything at all in regards to jefe, but there's always this huge bit of entitlement with a LOT of independent developers these days, that because they're indie, they're somehow above critique or actual feedback. That's not how this works in a free market, and I honestly believe that once the kinks are out, a lot of the less quality work that clogs Steam up and causes problems for the devs that ARE making quality content, and aren't making clones of clones of clones and charging twenty bucks for them.

Consumers need to have the ability to protect themselves. I'm extremely sympathetic to the plight of people who put effort into what they do, but let's be honest. Not everyone is going to win and not everyone is going to create content worth paying for, and it's ultimately up to the consumers to decide what IS worth paying for. That's how a market operates. There WILL be dickheads, just the same as any other industry, but there will also eventually be ways to deal with them too.

Honestly, I'm NOT a fan of anything that Qwiboo or Puppygames make or do, or any of the mobile devs that make terrible ports, then clog Steam with them. I understand they're trying to make a living, but again, if you're being hit that hard with refunds, then maybe what you're offering just isn't good.
This dude said what I wanted to say in a WAY more diplomatic way. Kudos.
avatar
jefequeso: I'll tell you what's wrong: I just managed to start making a living at a job I've dreamed about since I was 12, and just started being able to pay my monthly bills, and JUST STARTED making progress toward allowing my wife to quit her draining, stressful retail job that's making her life a living hell, and I'm scared all that might disappear just because my games happen to fall into a potential loophole that make them free to play for the same people that were just leaving negative meme reviews on my store page and trying to trick me into sending them free keys by pretending to be Raedwulfgamer.

You can lecture me all you want about my worries beng unfounded, but don't you DARE make judgements about my character, and presume to be able to lecture me about "you shouldn't make money off of something you love."

I'm as baffled as you are. Maybe someone linked this thread on Reddit or something like that.
avatar
itchy01ca01: Ill take back the judgments against your character. Those were uncalled for.
Some of the other stuff I have said has had merit, even though I came across as a complete douche.
All right, thank you. Then we're good.
Steam probably won't change for you, so if the occasional return (based on duration) is going to put you out of a job make longer games. Pad them out another 30 or so minutes..problem solved.
avatar
AlexY: Then you should be pretty open about people not liking it and wanting a refund.
avatar
jefequeso: I am. If they honestly believe they got something different than what they paid for:

http://steamcommunity.com/games/359040/announcements/detail/178236874805115760
Then there's no problem?
avatar
LiquidOxygen80: Words...
I definitely don't disagree with a lot of what you said. Speaking as an artist, sometime you'll sink an ungodly amount of time into something that ends up being terrible. The hours you spent making that abomination doesn't hide the fact that it's an abomination.

However there is a LOT of resentment from the gaming community towards devs that make "non-traditional" games, IE: "walking simulators", hidden object games, interactive novels etc. A game of that type could be fantastic but it'll still get bombarded with "worst game ever" "hurr durr stupid art major" type reviews and forum spam threads/posts.

For whatever reason, a large amount of gamers don't feel that those games should even be allowed to exist and they'll go out of their way to let everybody know how they feel about it.

Now that crowd probably isn't going to buy one of jefequeso's games, but they are the same crowd that will leave fake reviews, spam forums, etc to show their disdain for the fact that his type of games even exist.

Again, I'm not completely disagreeing with what you've said, I'm just saying that some games in certain genres get unfairly criticized to the point where you would assume they were terrible.
Post edited June 08, 2015 by NoNewTaleToTell
avatar
LiquidOxygen80: Listen, I'm just going to say this and I in no way mean this as a critique or a jab at jefe at all. Sometimes, it doesn't matter how hard you work, if your game is not good. I repeat, this does not mean anything at all in regards to jefe, but there's always this huge bit of entitlement with a LOT of independent developers these days, that because they're indie, they're somehow above critique or actual feedback. That's not how this works in a free market, and I honestly believe that once the kinks are out, a lot of the less quality work that clogs Steam up and causes problems for the devs that ARE making quality content, and aren't making clones of clones of clones and charging twenty bucks for them.
Sure, I agree with this. Putting work into something doesn't insulate you from criticism, nor does being indie. However, I don't think it's ever fair to judge the effort someone put into something based on your opinion of the final product. That's what I take issue with. Assuming that just because something's bad--or worse, just because you didn't LIKE it--that means no effort was put in.

avatar
LiquidOxygen80: Consumers need to have the ability to protect themselves. I'm extremely sympathetic to the plight of people who put effort into what they do, but let's be honest. Not everyone is going to win and not everyone is going to create content worth paying for, and it's ultimately up to the consumers to decide what IS worth paying for. That's how a market operates. There WILL be dickheads, just the same as any other industry, but there will also eventually be ways to deal with them too.

Honestly, I'm NOT a fan of anything that Qwiboo or Puppygames make or do, or any of the mobile devs that make terrible ports, then clog Steam with them. I understand they're trying to make a living, but again, if you're being hit that hard with refunds, then maybe what you're offering just isn't good.
To be perfectly honest, I've never been a believer in the "pay for it if it deserves being paid for" mentality of a lot of people on here. I believe that you pay for the privilage of experiencing a game. Whether it's good or bad at the end is irrelevant, because you still got the experience. You got the product, the producer deserves the money. Refunds, in my opinion, should be reserved for extreme cases where the game in question is legitimately broken, simply won't run on your computer, or was somehow falsely advertised. If you purchase the game, play it, and don't like it... well frankly, you paid for the opportunity to play it. IMO, you don't deserve a refund.

I realize that's an unpopular opinion, and perhaps not the most consumer-favoring philosophy... but in this day and age, with the plethora of reviews, first impressions, and Let's Plays at the consumer's disposal, I think it's actually a very fair one.
I played The Moon Sliver... But I didn't understand the ending...

I think "The Playfire rewards" is a good idea (but it was bad implemented)... You can give a reward for playing the game for more than two hours.
Post edited June 08, 2015 by Digital_CHE
avatar
LiquidOxygen80: Words...
avatar
NoNewTaleToTell: I definitely don't disagree with a lot of what you said. Speaking as an artist, sometime you'll sink an ungodly amount of time into something that ends up being terrible. The hours you spent making that abomination doesn't hide the fact that it's an abomination.

However there is a LOT of resentment from the gaming community towards devs that make "non-traditional" games, IE: "walking simulators", hidden object games, interactive novels etc. A game of that type could be fantastic but it'll still get bombarded with "worst game ever" "hurr durr stupid art major" type reviews and forum spam threads/posts.

For whatever reason, a large amount of gamers don't feel that those games should even be allowed to exist and they'll go out of their way to let everybody know how they feel about it.

Now that crowd probably isn't going to buy one of jefequeso's games, but they are the same crowd that will leave fake reviews, spam forums, etc to show their disdain for the fact that his type of games even exist.

Again, I'm not completely disagreeing with what you've said, I'm just saying that some games in certain genres get unfairly criticized to the point where you would assume they were terrible.
Pretty much this.

I mean, just look at some of the posts in this thread. Let alone comments on Greenlight or meme-filled Steam reviews.

Another great example is the Proteus review page. Despite the store page being very honest about what the game is, there are tons of negative reviews that don't like the game simply because of its "walking simulator" style. I have no idea how these people were " tricked" into buying it.

And before anyone says" well then don't make walking simulators..." I like them, I like making them, and there are plenty of people who like playing them. So why shouldn't I?
avatar
Digital_CHE: I played The Moon Sliver... But I didn't understand the ending...

I thing "The Playfire rewards" is a good idea (but it was bad implemented)... You can give a reward for playing the game for more than two hours.
Yeah, I know... I just really don't like the idea of achivements in my games. I feel like they would really detract from the experience.

Although I suppose having just one for playing for more than 2 hours wouldn't be too bad...
Post edited June 08, 2015 by jefequeso
avatar
itchy01ca01: Sorry for the caps, but when a developer mentions something like this, it usually means something else is wrong. I could be very wrong myself, but from experience, mentioning you are worried about something usually means that something could go wrong in your future. Steam is doing something that needed to be done. Hell, they didn't even go as far as gog did. Gog offers full refunds. Period.
Steam has caveats.
Personally, and this is my opinion, stupid as it may be, but I wouldn't be worried about a refund if I knew my game was good.
Oh, yes, because the consumers are well known great people. This thread is like politics from the past 50 years: left vs right.

And thanks for being honest with your music taste.
avatar
OlivawR: Oh, yes, because the consumers are well known great people.
Some are. I've had some really wonderful experiences with customers. But some certainly aren't.
One last little thing, as far as "making games that people enjoy" or are "worth paying for", check out the Steam review statistics for jefequeso's games below:

The Moon Sliver
Positive Reviews: 287
Negative Reviews: 114

The Music Machine
Positive Reviews: 29
Negative Reviews: 2
avatar
NoNewTaleToTell: One last little thing, as far as "making games that people enjoy" or are "worth paying for", check out the Steam review statistics for jefequeso's games below:

The Moon Sliver
Positive Reviews: 287
Negative Reviews: 114

The Music Machine
Positive Reviews: 29
Negative Reviews: 2
Nice find. lol
avatar
itchy01ca01: Sorry for the caps, but when a developer mentions something like this, it usually means something else is wrong. I could be very wrong myself, but from experience, mentioning you are worried about something usually means that something could go wrong in your future. Steam is doing something that needed to be done. Hell, they didn't even go as far as gog did. Gog offers full refunds. Period.
Steam has caveats.
Personally, and this is my opinion, stupid as it may be, but I wouldn't be worried about a refund if I knew my game was good.
avatar
OlivawR: Oh, yes, because the consumers are well known great people. This thread is like politics from the past 50 years: left vs right.

And thanks for being honest with your music taste.
Well, this is what happens when you get business involved with entertainment. Consumers vs. The Business. One is ALWAYS trying to fuck over the other. If businesses had their way, every single game would cost 100s of dollars. If consumers had their way, games would be free. That's just the nature of the beast. Some developers really aren't greedy, but others certainly are, just as consumers can be. Dickheads all around :)