Posted June 07, 2015
ET3D
Always a noob
ET3D Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Oct 2008
From Clipperton Island
Fenixp
nnpab
Fenixp Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Sep 2008
From Czech Republic
Posted June 07, 2015
tort1234
Realist
tort1234 Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: May 2015
From United States
Posted June 07, 2015
rayden54: If your games aren't worth keeping beyond 2 hours, then you really don't deserve the money.
jefequeso: People regularly pay $10 to go to the theater, to see a less-than-2-hour movie, once. Why does this whole "2 hours of entertainment doesn't deserve any amount of money" thing only apply to games? I would not mind paying $10 for movies like James Cameron's Avatar or Avengers. A lot of people have put a lot of hard work into it. And these movies are genuinely enjoyed by a lot of people.
Your game on the other hand is just a walking simulator. There are far better walking simulators for free on miniclip.com or paid games like dear esther or rapture.
I had to refund the game. It was boring.
pimpmonkey2382.313
You are obsolete. Delete!
pimpmonkey2382.313 Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Jan 2011
From United States
Posted June 07, 2015
jefequeso: People regularly pay $10 to go to the theater, to see a less-than-2-hour movie, once. Why does this whole "2 hours of entertainment doesn't deserve any amount of money" thing only apply to games?
tort1234: The movies they pay for have a lot more effort put into it. I would not mind paying $10 for movies like James Cameron's Avatar or Avengers. A lot of people have put a lot of hard work into it. And these movies are genuinely enjoyed by a lot of people.
Your game on the other hand is just a walking simulator. There are far better walking simulators for free on miniclip.com or paid games like dear esther or rapture.
I had to refund the game. It was boring.
jcosmocohen
Sledgehammer
jcosmocohen Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Aug 2010
From United States
Posted June 07, 2015
According to Steam, they will absolutely be tracking how many refunds any particular person asks for. It's the only way to combat this sort of thing.
Overall, I'm very glad they allow refunds, although there are going to be people abusing it, no doubt.
But I do see how it could be a problem for games that are very quick to finish. In which case, I would hope Valve will continue to monitor and adjust this so developers aren't put in a tough situation where people basically beat their game without spending any money on it.
Overall, I'm very glad they allow refunds, although there are going to be people abusing it, no doubt.
But I do see how it could be a problem for games that are very quick to finish. In which case, I would hope Valve will continue to monitor and adjust this so developers aren't put in a tough situation where people basically beat their game without spending any money on it.
tort1234
Realist
tort1234 Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: May 2015
From United States
Posted June 07, 2015
tort1234: The movies they pay for have a lot more effort put into it.
I would not mind paying $10 for movies like James Cameron's Avatar or Avengers. A lot of people have put a lot of hard work into it. And these movies are genuinely enjoyed by a lot of people.
Your game on the other hand is just a walking simulator. There are far better walking simulators for free on miniclip.com or paid games like dear esther or rapture.
I had to refund the game. It was boring.
pimpmonkey2382.313: Is every game that you walk in a "walking simulator? I would not mind paying $10 for movies like James Cameron's Avatar or Avengers. A lot of people have put a lot of hard work into it. And these movies are genuinely enjoyed by a lot of people.
Your game on the other hand is just a walking simulator. There are far better walking simulators for free on miniclip.com or paid games like dear esther or rapture.
I had to refund the game. It was boring.
If you want a more precise feedback on walking simulator, watch the link above.
A walking simulator is where you are just walking, there is no other gameplay, just pretty visuals and a soundtrack.
No way, anyone in their right mind, who lives on a budget would waste their money on this.
catpower1980
Hello World
catpower1980 Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: May 2009
From Canada
Posted June 07, 2015
More data:
WinterWolves games refunds upped 14x than before but it's around 5-6% (anyway its fanbase buys direct from his personal website):
https://twitter.com/pcmacgames/status/607530594801721344
17% to 55% refunds for some other devs (don't know who they are, I don't have time to dig all Twitter)
For PositechGames (Democracy 3, Gratuitous Space Battles, etc.), the rate refunds went from less than 0,1% to 17%
https://twitter.com/cliffski/status/607490264475836416
WinterWolves games refunds upped 14x than before but it's around 5-6% (anyway its fanbase buys direct from his personal website):
https://twitter.com/pcmacgames/status/607530594801721344
17% to 55% refunds for some other devs (don't know who they are, I don't have time to dig all Twitter)
For PositechGames (Democracy 3, Gratuitous Space Battles, etc.), the rate refunds went from less than 0,1% to 17%
https://twitter.com/cliffski/status/607490264475836416
Shadowstalker16
Jaded optimist
Shadowstalker16 Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Apr 2014
From India
Posted June 07, 2015
There's an interesting argument as to whether the rush to play, finish and refund will take away the experience from the shorter games. Ofc they wouldn't need a refund policy if people just researched before buying games, but EU consumer protection is how it is. A proper classification system with shorter games classified into non-refundable would've been great, but Steam's aversion to finding out what's on their service is sad.
stg83
Homo Ludens
stg83 Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Nov 2013
From Pakistan
Posted June 07, 2015
Jim Sterling makes some good points regarding the supposedly lost sales highlighted by Qwiboo with their statistics.
http://ask.fm/Jimquisition/answer/128177519586
I think he is right to compare it to the same hysteria big publishers drum up regarding piracy of a game equating to a lost sale. Ofcourse there is the potential for abuse with this refund policy but by and large increasing customer confidence will result in most people rewarding the trust similar to how they do with DRM Free games.
Altering the refund policy to circumvent the few cases of abuse while alienating the majority of the legitimate customers would not be a good idea. I have to agree with the suggestion of creating achievements for beating a game, which should then remove the option to refund as Totalbiscuit states.
"I'm still in favour of "if you get the completion achievement, you cant refund anymore", but otherwise, consumer rights are paramount."
http://ask.fm/Jimquisition/answer/128177519586
I think he is right to compare it to the same hysteria big publishers drum up regarding piracy of a game equating to a lost sale. Ofcourse there is the potential for abuse with this refund policy but by and large increasing customer confidence will result in most people rewarding the trust similar to how they do with DRM Free games.
Altering the refund policy to circumvent the few cases of abuse while alienating the majority of the legitimate customers would not be a good idea. I have to agree with the suggestion of creating achievements for beating a game, which should then remove the option to refund as Totalbiscuit states.
"I'm still in favour of "if you get the completion achievement, you cant refund anymore", but otherwise, consumer rights are paramount."
jefequeso
New User
jefequeso Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Dec 2010
From United States
Posted June 07, 2015
jefequeso: People regularly pay $10 to go to the theater, to see a less-than-2-hour movie, once. Why does this whole "2 hours of entertainment doesn't deserve any amount of money" thing only apply to games?
tort1234: The movies they pay for have a lot more effort put into it. I would not mind paying $10 for movies like James Cameron's Avatar or Avengers. A lot of people have put a lot of hard work into it. And these movies are genuinely enjoyed by a lot of people.
Your game on the other hand is just a walking simulator. There are far better walking simulators for free on miniclip.com or paid games like dear esther or rapture.
I had to refund the game. It was boring.
ET3D
Always a noob
ET3D Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Oct 2008
From Clipperton Island
Posted June 07, 2015
I don't think it's as easy as that. It's probably possible to disallow a refund for someone who got all achievements, but other than this I don't see a real option. I think that Valve will have to add a specific option which will developers will have to set, and that could then be abused by developers. (For example, if Valve let developers set the "finished game" achievement, and disallow refunds if a user got that, a dev could set the first achievement for entering the game to be that.)
Fenixp
nnpab
Fenixp Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Sep 2008
From Czech Republic
Posted June 08, 2015
ET3D: I don't think it's as easy as that. It's probably possible to disallow a refund for someone who got all achievements, but other than this I don't see a real option. I think that Valve will have to add a specific option which will developers will have to set, and that could then be abused by developers. (For example, if Valve let developers set the "finished game" achievement, and disallow refunds if a user got that, a dev could set the first achievement for entering the game to be that.)
Well... A percentage count of a finished game would have to be implemented using some sort of chokepoints by the developer as well, so that doesn't really change much. Not to mention the negative rep and amount of refunds they'd suddenly get if they started doing such a thing :-Pjefequeso
New User
jefequeso Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Dec 2010
From United States
Posted June 08, 2015
ET3D: Are sales number normal other than this?
Up to this point people who bought a game were expected to risk their money. If they didn't like it they had no choice but to keep it. With refunds I expect that more people will buy the game, but also a lot of refunds (so the net result will be fewer sales).
The big question is how many of those asking for refunds are cheaters. That would be hard to tell without Valve (and devs) implementing some way to track how far into the game people got.
To be honest, I'm not sure. And actually, upon looking closer, there have actually been many less than I thought (0 today, 12 over the whole week) when I glanced over it this morning. Up to this point people who bought a game were expected to risk their money. If they didn't like it they had no choice but to keep it. With refunds I expect that more people will buy the game, but also a lot of refunds (so the net result will be fewer sales).
The big question is how many of those asking for refunds are cheaters. That would be hard to tell without Valve (and devs) implementing some way to track how far into the game people got.
I don't think there will be any way for me to get good numbers for the next few months or so, due to sales and bundles. And to be honest, I'm not even sure what my average number of daily sales were previous to this.
ET3D: The big question is how many of those asking for refunds are cheaters. That would be hard to tell without Valve (and devs) implementing some way to track how far into the game people got.
Fenixp: It's already implemented, they call it 'achievements' Fenixp: Significant amount?
tort1234: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--LmQrsD6b0
If you want a more precise feedback on walking simulator, watch the link above.
A walking simulator is where you are just walking, there is no other gameplay, just pretty visuals and a soundtrack.
No way, anyone in their right mind, who lives on a budget would waste their money on this.
Except for, you know, all the people that love these sorts of games. But no, they must just be wrong, right? Their opinions don't count?If you want a more precise feedback on walking simulator, watch the link above.
A walking simulator is where you are just walking, there is no other gameplay, just pretty visuals and a soundtrack.
No way, anyone in their right mind, who lives on a budget would waste their money on this.
Post edited June 08, 2015 by jefequeso
itchy01ca01
SLAYEEERRRR!!
itchy01ca01 Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Dec 2012
From Canada
Posted June 08, 2015
Sorry dude. The rights of the consumers must trump the rights of the developers. You shouldn't be in it for the money. If you really cared about making games, and making good ones, you wouldn't care about how much they are going for OR worried about refunds. This tells me you are a weak-willed individual, who can't stand behind his games.
Either they are good, and people will play and talk about them, or they are bad, and you don't deserve the money you already have.
This is NOT a popular opinion, nor should it be. There are people who should make money on games, but at the expense of the consumer and his/her time? No.
Either they are good, and people will play and talk about them, or they are bad, and you don't deserve the money you already have.
This is NOT a popular opinion, nor should it be. There are people who should make money on games, but at the expense of the consumer and his/her time? No.
Post edited June 08, 2015 by itchy01ca01
Fenixp
nnpab
Fenixp Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Sep 2008
From Czech Republic
Posted June 08, 2015
Absolutely.
*sigh* Yes, you should be in it for the money, of course you should be in it for the money if you want to. That's such a dumb argument, money is how good art is rewarded and money is how consumers show their appreciation, money = people like your art enough to spend cash on it.
Don't argue with him, not worth it.
*sigh* Yes, you should be in it for the money, of course you should be in it for the money if you want to. That's such a dumb argument, money is how good art is rewarded and money is how consumers show their appreciation, money = people like your art enough to spend cash on it.
itchy01ca01: If you really cared about making games, and making good ones, you wouldn't care about how much they are going for OR worried about refunds. This tells me you are a weak-willed individual, who can't stand behind his games.
Do you have anyone depend on your income? Family, wife, girlfriend? Don't argue with him, not worth it.
Post edited June 08, 2015 by Fenixp