Posted June 04, 2015
Ophelium
Introvert
Registered: Sep 2011
From United States
xSinghx
Culture Industry
Registered: Oct 2014
From United States
Posted June 04, 2015
low rated
You are indeed doing any company a favor by buying their product or service (by the simple virtue you could buy someone else's) and as I have already stated (which you simply reiterated in your post) that means they have a responsibility to guarantee what they sell, they are selling in good faith. Meaning they are not providing a broken product or disingenuous service.
Furthermore the only reason we as a society allow any business to exist in the first place is that it is suppose to contribute to and benefit our society. So if that business is providing shoddy products, pays its workers nothing or in the case of something like Walmart relies on government welfare to subsidize the pay of its employees and actually keeps the taxes it charges you on any given receipt instead of handing it over to the local government - then business becomes a cancer and not a benefit and thus laws are needed. It is also worth noting the profit motives of business are in direct conflict with the public good which is another reason why laws are indispensable when it comes oversight of business. The fallacy that business and only business can provide a good or service is equally ludicrous, most of what business relies on has infact already been created by the public sector (computers, the internet, satellites, water and electricity so on and so on).
Now as for this issue of Steam refund abuse, well it's a non-issue isn't it. Complete propaganda. There simply is no abuse you can point to and yet every story discussing the policy of refunds and people like you imbibing this shlock propagandist message about a devious public ready to exploit the poor small businessman at any opportunity are reactionaries to nothing.
In addition this issue has at least two precedents including GoG and Origin that offer refunds and you don't see developers running for their lives. Why? Well obviously because again it's a non-issue. Not only that but as many in this thread have already pointed out if someone wants to steal a game without paying for it, torrenting is a vastly superior option than going through the headache of Steam which would hold and possibly keep your money. You and others like you can try and fabricate another side to this story but there simply isn't one - other than a fiction you and jefequeso are spinning.
Of course there are it's called fraud and theft which people go to jail for all the time.
This just reinforces my post that your views are simply fabricated hysteria with no relation to reality.
Post edited June 04, 2015 by xSinghx
Pompfinebara
-
Registered: Aug 2011
From Austria
Posted June 04, 2015
(Yes, I realize "refund their ad revenue" makes no sense. You know what I mean)
I basically agree with his tweets, but I'm a bit irritated at this "if you're worried about the refund policy you're a terrible, stupid human being" attitude some people seem to have. If you went to work tomorrow and your boss informed you that your paycheck would now be in the form of a large basket of money, stored unguarded and unlocked in the public restroom, wouldn't you be a mite concerned?
Yeah, it's not a perfect analogy, but I think you get my point.
I can see the advantages of the refund system, and Steam probably has a way of dealing with potential exploits... but still, guys, try to put yourself in my position before you get all self-righteous and haughty. I woke up yesterday and suddenly, it seemed to me, the general public had a way to basically pirate both my games directly from their store pages. My wife and I just started being able to actually pay our bills within the last year or so. Wouldn't you be a little scared as well?
Yeah, I can understand that you would worry about that, but I believe the new policy won't really affect your income in the end.
jefequeso
New User
Registered: Dec 2010
From United States
Posted June 04, 2015
(Yes, I realize "refund their ad revenue" makes no sense. You know what I mean)
I basically agree with his tweets, but I'm a bit irritated at this "if you're worried about the refund policy you're a terrible, stupid human being" attitude some people seem to have. If you went to work tomorrow and your boss informed you that your paycheck would now be in the form of a large basket of money, stored unguarded and unlocked in the public restroom, wouldn't you be a mite concerned?
Yeah, it's not a perfect analogy, but I think you get my point.
I can see the advantages of the refund system, and Steam probably has a way of dealing with potential exploits... but still, guys, try to put yourself in my position before you get all self-righteous and haughty. I woke up yesterday and suddenly, it seemed to me, the general public had a way to basically pirate both my games directly from their store pages. My wife and I just started being able to actually pay our bills within the last year or so. Wouldn't you be a little scared as well?
Yeah, I can understand that you would worry about that, but I believe the new policy won't really affect your income in the end.
jefequeso
New User
Registered: Dec 2010
From United States
Posted June 05, 2015
One might even argue that consumers are MORE likely to abuse the system, since they have nothing to lose. Business treats a customer badly? They lose a customer. Customer treats a business badly? The business has to stand up straight and take it like a man, lest they be bludgeoned with the old "customer is always right" mantra (and if you've ever worked in retail, you know that's a load of bull).
None of us know yet, and it would be stupid to say with any certainty one way or the other until we actually see numbers.
From who? Evil anti-consumer indie developers like me? Who are apparently comperable to Walmart? And apparently have taken this opportunity to unleash some evil anti-consumer agenda they've been plotting?
Look, I understand the concept of trusting your fans. I understand that now the indie game market thrives on trust and patronage from people who genuinely will give money to things they enjoy. I understand that most people aren't selfish assholes looking to cheat everyone. And I DO trust my fans. As much as you can trust someone you've never met.
But once again, try to put yourself in this situation. Of suddenly waking up one day and discovering that your entire livelyhood might now be based on the integrity of the same people who yesterday were leaving negative reviews because they "didn't pay attention to the story and played through it in 10 minutes, then left it running just to get all trading card drops." (an actual review). Yes, as an indie dev I meet plenty of wonderful people that treat me with respect and honesty. But I also meet a lot of jerks who act like...well...jerks. I'm not worried about what good honest people are going to do, I'm worried about what the jerks are going to do.
Do you lock up at night where you work (if you work that kind of job)? Of course you do. Is that because you or your boss is a paranoid idiot? Is it because you or your boss think your customers are thieves? No, it's because we all understand that there are jerks in the world, and you shouldn't give them opportunities to exploit you. So why doesn't the same logic apply to indie devs? Why, when I say "hey, I'm not comfortable with this new no deadbolt locks policy" does that suddenly make me someone you want to actively boycott?
For pete's sake... I'm not an evil dictator, I'm just a guy who makes games in my living room, who's worried about a gaping loophole in a new refund policy. Please stop treating me like some neo-Nazi just because I'm uncomfortable with the idea of leaving my storefront unlocked and unguarded. With a big neon sign out front that says "Hey, we don't lock our doors, and all our security cameras are battery-powered fakes."
Tizzysawr
Local Dragonsawr
Registered: Apr 2010
From Venezuela
Posted June 05, 2015
http://kotaku.com/a-horror-game-about-two-people-trapped-in-the-same-body-1709096239?utm_campaign=Socialflow_Kotaku_Twitter&utm_source=Kotaku_Twitter&utm_medium=Socialflow
Well, it seems to me you caught the attention of those in power man, congratz! Hope that raises your sales.
Well, it seems to me you caught the attention of those in power man, congratz! Hope that raises your sales.
Magnitus
Born Idealist
Registered: Mar 2011
From Canada
Posted June 05, 2015
I'd like to add to what others mentioned: Security is a game of risk vs reward.
The security measure just needs to be enough of a hassle that whatever gain is achieved by bypassing it is not worth it for most attackers and for the few attackers that take advantage, the losses to you are either non-existent or minimal.
The whole "contact us to get refund" policy was exploited for a while by retailers who would put stuff like "contact supplier to get 5$ off" knowing that most buyers wouldn't go through the hassle just to save 5$.
Here, I'd say the median wage, while in steady decline once you account for inflation, is still about 15$/hour and high enough to make budget games affordable. If someone spends 15 minutes trying to get a refund on a 3$ game, they just wasted3.75$ of their time to gain 3$, hence not worth it.
And someone out to actively sabotage or leech money off you will just be wasting their time buying and getting refunded. Won't be no skin off your back.
I'd say overall, the security measure is probably sound.
The security measure just needs to be enough of a hassle that whatever gain is achieved by bypassing it is not worth it for most attackers and for the few attackers that take advantage, the losses to you are either non-existent or minimal.
The whole "contact us to get refund" policy was exploited for a while by retailers who would put stuff like "contact supplier to get 5$ off" knowing that most buyers wouldn't go through the hassle just to save 5$.
Here, I'd say the median wage, while in steady decline once you account for inflation, is still about 15$/hour and high enough to make budget games affordable. If someone spends 15 minutes trying to get a refund on a 3$ game, they just wasted3.75$ of their time to gain 3$, hence not worth it.
And someone out to actively sabotage or leech money off you will just be wasting their time buying and getting refunded. Won't be no skin off your back.
I'd say overall, the security measure is probably sound.
Post edited June 05, 2015 by Magnitus
jefequeso
New User
Registered: Dec 2010
From United States
Posted June 05, 2015
Well, it seems to me you caught the attention of those in power man, congratz! Hope that raises your sales.
...I would have thought I'd be on some Kotaku blacklist, to be honest... but, coverage is coverage!
NWN_babayaga
New User
Registered: Aug 2012
From Germany
Posted June 05, 2015
I think valve did it to draw a line somewhere because from what i have read a few days ago someone did a game that is "a few seconds" long. In your case it sucks and i´m sorry to hear that but you can thank the fraudulent asses who see the meaning video game developer as an image that gives them "self promotion" attention and not justified bullying of other people and money!
You can thank all those frauds in the indy scene!
You can thank all those frauds in the indy scene!
tammerwhisk
Commageddon
Registered: Dec 2010
From United States
Posted June 05, 2015
The first thing most people thought about when the policy launched was their regretted $40-90 purchases, not that one indie game they paid less for than a sandwich.
See the thing is anyone truly interested in exploiting the system is going to be greedy, they're going to be interested in the big ticket items. Look at retail stores the expensive but easily carried shit is under lock and key, but the little cheap stuff has very little security on it overall.
Unless you pull a Slaughtering Grounds or piss people off a la Brianna Wu, I don't think anyone will really fuck with you (at least not in high enough quantities to matter).
Ryuubei
Lost Soul
Registered: Oct 2010
From United Kingdom
Posted June 05, 2015
GOG really needs to adopt a similar policy since their current one is the same as Valves old policy. And frankly they're now getting shown up by Valve and EA. Whats more if they have the same policy come october when the new EU directives come into force they're gonna have a tough time of it
jefequeso
New User
Registered: Dec 2010
From United States
Posted June 05, 2015
The security measure just needs to be enough of a hassle that whatever gain is achieved by bypassing it is not worth it for most attackers and for the few attackers that take advantage, the losses to you are either non-existent or minimal.
The whole "contact us to get refund" policy was exploited for a while by retailers who would put stuff like "contact supplier to get 5$ off" knowing that most buyers wouldn't go through the hassle just to save 5$.
Here, I'd say the median wage, while in steady decline once you account for inflation, is still about 15$/hour and high enough to make budget games affordable. If someone spends 15 minutes trying to get a refund on a 3$ game, they just wasted3.75$ of their time to gain 3$, hence not worth it.
And someone out to actively sabotage or leech money off you will just be wasting their time buying and getting refunded. Won't be no skin off your back.
I'd say overall, the security measure is probably sound.
jefequeso
New User
Registered: Dec 2010
From United States
Posted June 05, 2015
The first thing most people thought about when the policy launched was their regretted $40-90 purchases, not that one indie game they paid less for than a sandwich.
See the thing is anyone truly interested in exploiting the system is going to be greedy, they're going to be interested in the big ticket items. Look at retail stores the expensive but easily carried shit is under lock and key, but the little cheap stuff has very little security on it overall.
Unless you pull a Slaughtering Grounds or piss people off a la Brianna Wu, I don't think anyone will really fuck with you (at least not in high enough quantities to matter).
At least for the moment I'm not involved in any nasty internet drama, although those that know me can attest that I do tend to unwisely stick my nose into controversy. Maybe I'll learn to keep out of things before I step on a social media landmine. Hopefully.
I think the worst thing that happened was that one crazy developer said people should boycott my game because of things I'd said about #GamerGate... then a whole slew of other people started buying it just to spite him. So... I guess that worked out in my favor -_-
Truthfully, though, I doubt I'm ever going to be "famous" enough to generate any huge shitstorm. Then again, who ever heard of Brianna Wu before #GamerGate? Although I'd like to think that I am at least somewhat based in reality...
oops, there I go again sticking my nose in controversy ;)
tammerwhisk
Commageddon
Registered: Dec 2010
From United States
Posted June 05, 2015
The first thing most people thought about when the policy launched was their regretted $40-90 purchases, not that one indie game they paid less for than a sandwich.
See the thing is anyone truly interested in exploiting the system is going to be greedy, they're going to be interested in the big ticket items. Look at retail stores the expensive but easily carried shit is under lock and key, but the little cheap stuff has very little security on it overall.
Unless you pull a Slaughtering Grounds or piss people off a la Brianna Wu, I don't think anyone will really fuck with you (at least not in high enough quantities to matter).
At least for the moment I'm not involved in any nasty internet drama, although those that know me can attest that I do tend to unwisely stick my nose into controversy. Maybe I'll learn to keep out of things before I step on a social media landmine. Hopefully.
I think the worst thing that happened was that one crazy developer said people should boycott my game because of things I'd said about #GamerGate... then a whole slew of other people started buying it just to spite him. So... I guess that worked out in my favor -_-
Truthfully, though, I doubt I'm ever going to be "famous" enough to generate any huge shitstorm. Then again, who ever heard of Brianna Wu before #GamerGate? Although I'd like to think that I am at least somewhat based in reality...
oops, there I go again sticking my nose in controversy ;)
And the reality is no matter what system they implement it will be abusable. People are somewhat focused on the negatives of it (at least as far as indies go), but it could also help the scene in general by weeding out the cash-ins. I kind of stopped buying indie games for the most part unless I already played the creator's previous works just because so much of it is halfhearted cash-ins with no real quality anymore. Look at all the games just slapped together in Unity with no real soul. Ever since Valve opened the floodgates and changed the storefront it seldom is worth the effort of looking through releases. Maybe this will help weed out some of the garbage, so other indies actually pouring their hearts into their work can get better exposure.
Post edited June 05, 2015 by tammerwhisk
jefequeso
New User
Registered: Dec 2010
From United States
Posted June 05, 2015
At least for the moment I'm not involved in any nasty internet drama, although those that know me can attest that I do tend to unwisely stick my nose into controversy. Maybe I'll learn to keep out of things before I step on a social media landmine. Hopefully.
I think the worst thing that happened was that one crazy developer said people should boycott my game because of things I'd said about #GamerGate... then a whole slew of other people started buying it just to spite him. So... I guess that worked out in my favor -_-
Truthfully, though, I doubt I'm ever going to be "famous" enough to generate any huge shitstorm. Then again, who ever heard of Brianna Wu before #GamerGate? Although I'd like to think that I am at least somewhat based in reality...
oops, there I go again sticking my nose in controversy ;)
And the reality is no matter what system they implement it will be abusable. People are somewhat focused on the negatives of it (at least as far as indies go), but it could also help the scene in general by weeding out the cash-ins. I kind of stopped buying indie games for the most part unless I already played the creator's previous works just because so much of it is halfhearted cash-ins with no real quality anymore. Look at all the games just slapped together in Unity with no real soul. Ever since Valve opened the floodgates and changed the storefront it seldom is worth the effort of looking through releases. Maybe this will help weed out some of the garbage, so other indies actually pouring their hearts into their work can get better exposure.