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dtgreene: If you hibernate Linux with an NTFS partition mounted
Ah ok. Well I don't to that any more on Linux, than I do on Windows.

So proper shutdowns and reboots both on Windows and Linux, and life is grand.
Post edited July 24, 2021 by timppu
Well, with the fact that’s it’s only purchasable via steam, and they recommend not to use windows on it, I am skipping it. With the money I saved up not buying anything here, I got myself a switch! Heard many good things about them, and there are a fair few games I want to try out. Maybe some time in the future I will upgrade the gpd win 2 to the 3.
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kohlrak: Snip
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Spectrum_Legacy: I'm sorry for delay, I even had to re-read most of your posts to realize that you are on about theory and expressing your wishes about APUs development and sw/game optimizations for them and how it could affect prices of other hardware etc. I talked from my daily experience with AMD APUs since Richland and Kaveri A10 desktop days, how they behave in practice and not on paper in comparison to all kinds of ranges of desktops with dGPUs, not to mention my hw-oriented background. Btw optimizing future games for the lowest denominator is an utopia and regress for pc gaming in general. Steam Desk will likely have a low/mid-end settings optimized for it in some games, depending on hw requirements of said game and dev's willingness to provide it (or maybe community could provide setting profiles via cloud for various games or whatever).
Yeah, good ol' Wirth's law.
You made it sounds in that post as if there are games that struggled on desktop, while an APU made them run just fine, which I find really hard to believe unless you mix apples and oranges and talk about consoles vs potatos and general use laptops. Or we can call it a language barrier.
No, there are some games that do, but assuming it applied universally is incorrect. Because of wirth's law, the moment any of them do, someone makes sure to change that.

Lastly, the memory is the single greatest bottleneck of an APU design, as long as it's your standard system memory that gets shared. That's followed by thermal envelope (no way around it with a tight enclosure of a handheld, otherwise it will either get hot or loud) and lower clocks. There are no IFs BUTs or anything else about it, sorry. I've mentioned HBM2 specifically because it has memory bus times wider than its actual distance to the gpu core. 1024bit per 4GB stack.... steam deck will have what, 128bit tops for the whole memory stack? And that would be grand, since it's ddr5 at least.
That's why you need to re-read. I proposed a separate memory for GPU.
People need to get real with what to expect from Steam deck. It's great as a portable device, comparable to a low-ish end desktop of same generation in performance. Is it good news? Sure! At least there's some competition in the segment. Will it become that be-all end-all pc device? Hype aside, that's highly unlikely.
I hope that they will iron out the launch kinks and come up with some prosumer v2 model with updates, tweaks and that oled display I waxed lyrical about already for obvious reasons. I'm not worried of desoldering ssd or memory chips themselves for an upgrade down the road when possible etc, but it's not ideal for the general consumer who is unlikely to even go into the options to set display brightness right.
Yeah, tbh, I expect this thing to go horribly and quickly turn into only allowing games that aim for it. In other words, there may even be some games that are compatible, but won't be allowed to run on it. That's the way these things usually turn out as time goes on.
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dtgreene: If you hibernate Linux with an NTFS partition mounted, booting Windows would not be a good idea, as it will likely try to "fix" that filesystem, and that would not be a good idea, as then Linux will likely corrupt the filesystem furthen when resuming from hibernation.
This is one of the many reasons using NTFS for a shared Windows/Linux partition is a bad idea. UDF would be a much better option.

(of course, the best option is not using Windows at all)
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dtgreene: If you hibernate Linux with an NTFS partition mounted, booting Windows would not be a good idea, as it will likely try to "fix" that filesystem, and that would not be a good idea, as then Linux will likely corrupt the filesystem furthen when resuming from hibernation.
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vv221: This is one of the many reasons using NTFS for a shared Windows/Linux partition is a bad idea. UDF would be a much better option.

(of course, the best option is not using Windows at all)
UDF would have the same issue. If you hibernate one OS without unmounting it, and you then boot the other OS and ount the drive read-write, then you could have file system corruption.

The ideal solution would be to not boot into the other OS after hibernating one OS, and it doesn't matter what OSes or filesystems are in play.

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kohlrak: That's why you need to re-read. I proposed a separate memory for GPU.
Problems with separate memory for GPU:
* Less flexible, as if either CPU or GPU needs to use large amounts of memory and the other does not, one can't (easily) use the other type of memory.
* Slower CPU<->GPU transfers. If memory is shared, then the transfer can be fast, and in some cases even be a no-op. (For example, one could map GPU memory as CPU addressable with no overhead at all; the graphics library would just return a pointer and not have to do any copying of memory.) With separate GPU memory, the data will need to be transferred, which is slow. (This is the main reason why integrated graphics could run faster than dedicated graphics for (real) work loads. Note that software renderers like LLVMpipe have this advantage, but are considerably slower than integrated graphics.)
Post edited July 25, 2021 by dtgreene
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kohlrak: That's why you need to re-read. I proposed a separate memory for GPU.
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dtgreene: Problems with separate memory for GPU:
* Less flexible, as if either CPU or GPU needs to use large amounts of memory and the other does not, one can't (easily) use the other type of memory.
The memory controller worries about the RAM. You'd have a separate memory controller and even a separate RAM slot. I mean, sure, you can't just go into your bios or OS settings and change the value, but it would solve alot of bottle-neck issues. If they did this, you could still have your external slots and gain some of the benefits of the APU, too. The problem is we're still using in and out instructions to mess with the GPU, and the GPU has to wait for other DMA'd devices like the sound card, the network card, etc, to quit playing around at their lower clock rates.
* Slower CPU<->GPU transfers. If memory is shared, then the transfer can be fast, and in some cases even be a no-op. (For example, one could map GPU memory as CPU addressable with no overhead at all; the graphics library would just return a pointer and not have to do any copying of memory.) With separate GPU memory, the data will need to be transferred, which is slow. (This is the main reason why integrated graphics could run faster than dedicated graphics for (real) work loads. Note that software renderers like LLVMpipe have this advantage, but are considerably slower than integrated graphics.)
I don't think you understand what i'm proposing. You see, STM32 (ARM CPUs) have slow ram and fast ram. Use this image for reference and look for the grey pins labled A# (there should be 16 of them). It's been a while since i touched mine, but i recall that when you start writing to address 0x60000000 the other pins (PB) go active. So if you wrote 1 to address 0x60000000, PB0 goes hot, the others stay cold, and the PA pins are cold. If you write 7 to 0x60000006, PA1, PA2, PB0, PB1, and PB2 all go hot, and the others stay cold. The implications of this is rather fascinating, acutally. It means, by writing to an address, you set the PB pins with the data, and that address (-0x6000000) will then set the PA pins accordingly, allowing you to set a multitude of pins with fewer instructions.

This means that these boards, without any modification, can actually share memory with a GPU that's external. Moreover, if, say, you had an external redirector of some sort, you could use pin PA0 to specify that it goes to the video memory or the current ram. So, without any modifications to the CPU, this can be redirected to separate RAM. The practical outlook of this is that, since the x86 currently has a 40bit address bus (it doesn't use the full 64bits), you could reserve addresses 0x8000000000 and above to be for VRAM and limit that machine to that amount of RAM for non-video memory. That still affords you 512 gigabytes of RAM. Obviously, this standard wouldn't last forever, but we could always move it as appropriate and throw this on the OS to understand that. Then you can thread the memory controller with the slow one going into wait any time 0x8000000000 or higher is selected (which is a single bit for it to look for). Underneath the hood, that's what these memory controllers are for, anyway. Now with some even smarter fanangling, you can set the memory controllers to talk to one another, so that if the disk is DMA'd, you can load stuff directly to VRAM with the CPU temporarily locked out (and this wouldn't happen very often, of course). Once the transfer is complete, the memory controllrs quit talking to one another and go back to their multi-threaded mode and let the CPU control them independently again. As far as far as CPU and almost all code is concerned, nothing changed.
If you wanted to play older games (without much GPU usage) or the earlier gen systems, chromebooks seem to be a decent choice. I found an HP one i have is an Intel rather than ARM processor... Makes me wonder how much the windows license is since the one i just picked up was only $50.

Though the chromebooks are rather anemic for a lot of things... So not sure how much to compare...
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rtcvb32: If you wanted to play older games (without much GPU usage) or the earlier gen systems, chromebooks seem to be a decent choice. I found an HP one i have is an Intel rather than ARM processor... Makes me wonder how much the windows license is since the one i just picked up was only $50.

Though the chromebooks are rather anemic for a lot of things... So not sure how much to compare...
Don’t you need rubber gloves to use a chrome book? I mean to stop Google scraping your dna?
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dtgreene: UDF would have the same issue. If you hibernate one OS without unmounting it, and you then boot the other OS and ount the drive read-write, then you could have file system corruption.
No, not for a shared data partition using UDF.
But if you were writing about the actual Windows system partition, I fail to see why you would want to access to it from Linux.
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rtcvb32: If you wanted to play older games (without much GPU usage) or the earlier gen systems, chromebooks seem to be a decent choice. I found an HP one i have is an Intel rather than ARM processor... Makes me wonder how much the windows license is since the one i just picked up was only $50.

Though the chromebooks are rather anemic for a lot of things... So not sure how much to compare...
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nightcraw1er.488: Don’t you need rubber gloves to use a chrome book? I mean to stop Google scraping your dna?
It looks like you can totally replace the OS, i might just do that. I might have to look into the firewall to see if i can block as much as possible otherwise, but other than the book is connected to some odd IP address it gives google no real information so i'm not sure.

edit: I have replaced the OS and aside from the Realtime Clock being off, it's a decent enough machine. Nice running Slax natively.
Post edited September 13, 2021 by rtcvb32
So I ended up buying a switch and a few games. It’s a nice enough console. I think one big thing in favour of the steam deck however is both the size of the library and the cost. Switch games are hugely expensive, being £40 upwards each, and even more if you digitally buy them from Nintendo. So I can’t see me getting a big library, just the mario games and Zelda, and maybe Diablo 3. The steam deck has the whole key reseller markets really driving down cost. Same with the gpd win 3. I suppose one thing to check on the steam console, can it run emulators and such like? I have dolphin and retro arch on the gpd win 2 and they run well.
While I may not be in the market for the device, it does look like a cool little portable PC. As said before, this may very well kill its competitors in this niche market.

Anyway, here's a fun little vid from Linus Tech Tips with him going overboard on all the different things he tested.
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nightcraw1er.488: Well, with the fact that’s it’s only purchasable via steam, and they recommend not to use windows on it
Sorry I missed that earlier. Why don't they recommend using Windows on it? Was it that "Windows 10 doesn't have a gaming-friendly sleep mode where you can pause and resume your game at any point of time" (about which I personally don't care) or something else?

Of course, I am unsure if Windows 11 refuses to install to the system, but that deadline comes in 2025. I guess it is good if at that point you can use Linux on it, if you are still using the system at that point (I probably would as long as its battery still works or can be easily replaced, as I tend to use easily over a decade old laptops in everyday use as well).

While Linux is ok, I still wish it is pretty much a generic micro-PC where you can decide yourself what to install on it, Windows included. Sometimes I might want to use Windows on it instead, depending on the games (or other stuff) I am going to run on it.

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Mr.Mumbles: While I may not be in the market for the device, it does look like a cool little portable PC. As said before, this may very well kill its competitors in this niche market.
Just yesterday while watching this Steam Deck video below, I was thinking how the Aya Neo deveopers and backers must have been like "Oooooh shiiiit..." with the Steam Deck announcement... Feeling something might have made it obsolete before it was even properly released...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SElZABp5M3U

Aya Neo also seems quite good, but it appears that as far as the hardware goes, Steam Deck offers more for a cheaper price...

GPD Win 3 interests me mostly because it has an integrated keyboard which makes it more a portable computer than just a portable gaming device. Which I like, and would end up using those devices mostly anyway, only occasionally playing on them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1Kly8AyNPU
Post edited August 07, 2021 by timppu
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Mr.Mumbles: While I may not be in the market for the device, it does look like a cool little portable PC. As said before, this may very well kill its competitors in this niche market.

Anyway, here's a fun little vid from Linus Tech Tips with him going overboard on all the different things he tested.
yep it will , why would anyone buy anything else than this
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nightcraw1er.488: So I ended up buying a switch and a few games.
Oh, welcome to the club then. I am now learning which Switch-exclusive games to purchase for my Switch, in order to get rid of buyer's remorse, and also learning about modding the console to install e.g. Android or some Linux on it, in order to run homebrew games, emulators etc., kinda making it more like those "portable PCs". I think my unit is too new with too new firmware though, to be modded...

So far I have only Minecraft for Switch (which was a good purchase as my son plays it almost daily since last Xmas, good bang for buck apparently), and I have this odd crave to buy the Switch version of The Witcher 3, just to marvel how Switch can run it... but apparently those handheld PCs can run the PC version of TW3 quite well as well...

Diablo 3, hmmm... No interest in buying the online-only PC version, maybe a Switch version then, if it runs also offline?
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Orkhepaj: yep it will , why would anyone buy anything else than this
GPD Win 3 has an integrated keyboard, making it a true portable PC, not just a portable gaming device...

Other than that, Steam Deck does currently seem to offer the most hardware and performance for the price.
Post edited August 07, 2021 by timppu