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General discussionStar Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker(361 posts)(361 posts)
(361 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted January 03, 2020
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LootHunter: ......And most people would like to be powerful and control others.
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ThorChild: Not most people in my experience, only those that are evil or fallen to the Dark Side ;)
Well, that's where I disagree with you. Good people, just like evil have desire to be powerful and control others, it's just they keep their desires in check.
Posted January 03, 2020
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ThorChild: Not most people in my experience, only those that are evil or fallen to the Dark Side ;)
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LootHunter: Well, that's where I disagree with you. Good people, just like evil have desire to be powerful and control others, it's just they keep their desires in check.
My dear Russian friend, you need to spend more time with Yoda and less with Palpy ;)

But having said that i have zero desire to control you so you must do as you wish off course, and in that sense it is just a suggestion. We must be free to live our lives as wish, and the consequences of that.

(btw this is just a bit of 'Jedi' fun, just in case it was not clear).

So who else saw the new film and has a metric idea where it stands in the sequence of this last Disney trilogy and maybe vs the Prequels and Original films etc?

I 'think' The Mandalorian might be the best 'Star Wars' we see this generation, just going on sneak peaks and reviews i've seen of it etc?
Post edited January 03, 2020 by ThorChild
Posted January 03, 2020
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ThorChild: This IS an interesting topic, and very appropriate for our time politically speaking.
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LootHunter: I would argue that this topic has nothing to do with "our time". Evil always was attractive. Gaining personal power and controlling others through force and fear - that's what adepts of the Dark Side do, and that's what is generally considered to be evil across most cultures. And most people would like to be powerful and control others.
Exactly.

That is why the Dark Side is known to be seductive.

In fact I believe it was Yoda says as much. Anyway, it is very simply spelled out in the OT.

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ThorChild: Not most people in my experience, only those that are evil or fallen to the Dark Side ;)
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LootHunter: Well, that's where I disagree with you. Good people, just like evil have desire to be powerful and control others, it's just they keep their desires in check.
Again, yes...

... this is the very conflict that Luke is feeling in throne room in RotJ. He wants to strike down The Emperor -- give in to the Dark Side ("Give in to your hate!") -- but he has to refuse that temptation -- stay in the Light Side of the Force -- if he doesn't want to become the "monsters" that he is fighting.
Post edited January 03, 2020 by kai2
Posted January 03, 2020
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LootHunter: Well, that's where I disagree with you. Good people, just like evil have desire to be powerful and control others, it's just they keep their desires in check.
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ThorChild: My dear Russian friend, you need to spend more time with Yoda and less with Palpy ;)
Don't worry, I'm not going to replay KotOR in the near future. But yes, I've indeed spent much time on Korriban with well intentioned people, who came to join "Sith Academy" so they could become powerful enough to overthrow slave traders, clear corruption of local governments, protect their loved ones from the war, etc.
Posted January 03, 2020
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ThorChild: That does not detract from my discomfort at seeing Star Wars and Shakespeare lumped together.
It would seem you have some personal biases that might get in the way when analyzing art.

As to the Light Side of the Force and the Dark Side of the Force...

I find it bothersome that some are insisting on Grey Jedi and a Grey Side of the Force.

In both practice and theory this is counter to Lucas' original idea. You don't mix-and-match Dark and Light elements to become a Grey Jedi. The idea was that if you allow the Dark Side into your soul, you in fact become corrupted... and at least over time... become evil. Grey Jedi are in fact corrupted and on their way to full-blown Dark Side evil.

This is one element added by Filoni that I just don't think tracks in Force canon. Yes, it's popular sentiment because most people in the modern world find society -- and the world -- shades of grey ethics and morality. But Star Wars uses a morality as straightforward and simple as Lord of the Rings... good vs evil and never the twain shall meet (unlike GoT which is all about grey moral ambiguity).

I do believe that the prequels didn't actively show the positive aspects of the Light Side of the Force. Instead the Jedi were seen as rigid -- almost robotic -- and that game rise to critical analysis of whether the Light Side of the Force could be just as bad as the Dark Side... which I can almost guarantee was not Lucas' intention.
Post edited January 03, 2020 by kai2
Posted January 03, 2020
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LootHunter: Well, that's where I disagree with you. Good people, just like evil have desire to be powerful and control others, it's just they keep their desires in check.
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kai2: Again, yes...

... this is the very conflict that Luke is feeling in throne room in RotJ. He wants to strike down The Emperor -- give in to the Dark Side ("Give in to your hate!") -- but he has to refuse that temptation -- stay in the Light Side of the Force -- if he doesn't want to become the "monsters" that he is fighting.
And... (rot13 spoilers of Episode 9 follow)

Gur fnzr guvat unccraf jvgu Erl nf jryy; juvyr vg'f abg va n guebar ebbz, fur nyfb unf gb erfvfg gur grzcgngvba gb fgevxr qbja gur Rzcrebe, be ryfr (vs gur Rzcrebe vf gryyvat gur gehgu), fur jvyy orpbzr gur arj Rzcerff.
Posted January 03, 2020
My first impression of the Ep. IX was good, i came of the cinema with a good feeling, i enjoyed seeing the film, instead of Ep. VIII that was angry. With the pass of the days i felt like the artifacts of JJ were unnecessaries and product of a bad script, the wayfinders, the coin, the dagger like in The Goonies. I enjoyed the film yes, the Reylo is i expected for two powerful persons of the force and beginning on the openning crowl with Palpatine, in a second watching, is a good way to present the villain.

The film didn´t let you think with so constantly action and the two and a half hours passed me quickly. A pitty that the trilogy has benn written by two directors so different. I would like to see a specific trilogy of each one only.

I felt like in the music Williams is low than in the Prequels, very very low. And because of in a trailer they put the Duel of the Fates i was all the film hoping listenning this theme.

I enjoyed more with The Mandalorian that reminds me the spirit of the Original Trilogy, first two chapters, the fourth and the seventh are my favourites.
Post edited January 03, 2020 by argamasa
Posted January 03, 2020
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argamasa: I felt like in the music Williams is low than in the Prequels, very very low.
What I found, with respect to the music, is this:
* Episodes 7 and 8 don't really have much of a prominent soundtrack. The music introduced in Episode 7, however, sounds quite good on its own. (I actually got to play a Star Wars medley that included a few of these tracks in orchestra.)
* Episode 9 has more prominent music, so you can actually hear the music, and it's quite good here. There's a mix of old and new tunes in this work. It's also interesting to see how the themes of different characters are presented here.
* Also, there's actually some musical foreshadowing. The biggest plot element (and the one that's a *major* spoiler) is actually foreshadowed in the music back in Episode 7. (rot13: Pbzcner Erl'f gurzr jvgu gung bs Rzcrebe Cnycngvar.)
Posted January 04, 2020
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kai2: It would seem you have some personal biases that might get in the way when analyzing art.

As to the Light Side of the Force and the Dark Side of the Force...

I find it bothersome that some are insisting on Grey Jedi and a Grey Side of the Force.

In both practice and theory this is counter to Lucas' original idea. You don't mix-and-match Dark and Light elements to become a Grey Jedi. The idea was that if you allow the Dark Side into your soul, you in fact become corrupted... and at least over time... become evil. Grey Jedi are in fact corrupted and on their way to full-blown Dark Side evil.

This is one element added by Filoni that I just don't think tracks in Force canon. Yes, it's popular sentiment because most people in the modern world find society -- and the world -- shades of grey ethics and morality. But Star Wars uses a morality as straightforward and simple as Lord of the Rings... good vs evil and never the twain shall meet (unlike GoT which is all about grey moral ambiguity).

I do believe that the prequels didn't actively show the positive aspects of the Light Side of the Force. Instead the Jedi were seen as rigid -- almost robotic -- and that game rise to critical analysis of whether the Light Side of the Force could be just as bad as the Dark Side... which I can almost guarantee was not Lucas' intention.
If your interpretation of Lucas vision is correct, he completely failed at it because of Anakin/Vader and Luke. Vader fell to the Dark Side, but there was always an element of good inside him, which caused him to hate what he became. He told Luke in RotJ that it was too late for him (to redeem himself), he wouldn't say that if he didn't actually feel that what he did was wrong - which is something that true Dark Sider would never say (speaking here as a local Dark Lord of the Sith). And about Luke... well, during Empire and RotJ, he was playing quite a lot with it, but never fell to (unless you count EU). And balance of the Force requires both Dark and Light to be present.

Besides, sticking with Lucas' original idea seems meaningless if you go with the man himself. He changed quite a lot details and ideas as the series progressed, from the Empire to the Revenge.
Posted January 04, 2020
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Mafwek: If your interpretation of Lucas vision is correct, he completely failed at it because of Anakin/Vader and Luke. Vader fell to the Dark Side, but there was always an element of good inside him...
“Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.”

– Yoda

I don't particularly believe that that simply because there is a defined moral duality that redemption is impossible. Improbable? Yes. Impossible? No.

The Star Wars saga (first 6 episodes) are pretty clear that everyone has both good and bad within themselves, but control is what allows for entrance to the Light Side of the Force. Anger, resentment, jealousy, etc. -- essentially expressions of chaos -- lead to the Dark Side. So, I'd argue it's not that you get rid of all aspects of your humanity to follow the Light Side of the Force, but it's that you learn to control your inner chaos and turmoil.

At the same time...

... accessing that chaos on occasion...

... as Grey Jedi would do...

... seems a corruption of the philosophy and something done to appease audiences who might no longer immediately relate to a moral duality.
Post edited January 04, 2020 by kai2
Posted January 04, 2020
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argamasa: I felt like in the music Williams is low than in the Prequels, very very low. And because of in a trailer they put the Duel of the Fates i was all the film hoping listenning this theme.

I enjoyed more with The Mandalorian that reminds me the spirit of the Original Trilogy, first two chapters, the fourth and the seventh are my favourites.
Yeah i'd seen people mention specifically that the music in TRoS (?) (the last film) was disappointing for a Williams score. Which is a shame as the music and sounds of Star Wars are of equal importance as everything else it is good at (when it IS good that is).

Boba Fett was such a cool background character (from the Original Trilogy films). Obviously 'bad' and kind of killed off rather ingloriously in RotJ, but interesting enough that Vadar knew his reputation personally ("And no disintegration's!"). So i'm pleased so far with what The Mandalorian seems to be doing, but it will be years before i see it in full (as i prefer box-sets rather than following a series at the time).

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ThorChild: That does not detract from my discomfort at seeing Star Wars and Shakespeare lumped together.
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kai2: It would seem you have some personal biases that might get in the way when analyzing art.

As to the Light Side of the Force and the Dark Side of the Force...

I find it bothersome that some are insisting on Grey Jedi and a Grey Side of the Force.
Like i said 'War and Peace vs a Marvel comic', they are not really able to be compared satisfactorily imho, but if you (or Lucas!) are happy with the Shakespeare comparison for the Prequels, more power to you (i just have to shake my head with a puzzled grin!) :)

Oh and the Prequels are a genuine Tragedy in more than one sense, and probably not in the way Lucas liked to think about it! ;)

I'd not heard of the Grey Jedi before, and having not looked into it, my initial reaction is that for the times we are in today it does make perfect sense.

Many people are much closer to the Dark Side than the Light in their daily lives, in how they treat their fellow man, or in how they vote etc. And at the same time those people are all ultimately having that inner conflict with morality that Luke faced in LotR (sometimes, and some will often be totally oblivious to it, or project it away by hiding behind various things (their 'faith' etc)). Well something like that. It often won't be as obvious as Luke had it!

So part of the 'glamorizing of the Empire' we have seen culturally speaking over the years would naturally give rise to an idea of having a 'grey area' (Grey Jedi). The thing is people don't often like to self identify as evil, even when their actions are evil, so they tend to relabel that evil to something more palatable. In that context i can see a modern society urge for Grey Jedi being a thing.

You are right in it being total bunk, but so is a large percentage of what goes on around us today imho. It's also part of why Lucas and now Disney can't make decent Star Wars films anymore, when you ('we' in the wider social context) have lost your way in life, your art can only reflect that.
Posted January 04, 2020
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ThorChild: That does not detract from my discomfort at seeing Star Wars and Shakespeare lumped together.
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kai2: It would seem you have some personal biases that might get in the way when analyzing art.

As to the Light Side of the Force and the Dark Side of the Force...

I find it bothersome that some are insisting on Grey Jedi and a Grey Side of the Force.

In both practice and theory this is counter to Lucas' original idea. You don't mix-and-match Dark and Light elements to become a Grey Jedi. The idea was that if you allow the Dark Side into your soul, you in fact become corrupted... and at least over time... become evil. Grey Jedi are in fact corrupted and on their way to full-blown Dark Side evil.

This is one element added by Filoni that I just don't think tracks in Force canon.
Except there isn't any "Grey Side" in canon. At least I don't remember anyone saying that. Grey Jedi are basically Jedi, who just don't follow the Jedi code or Sith teachings and use both Dark Side and Light Side techniques. You can of course argue if Grey Jedi will be able to go on the path between the Light and the Dark indefinitely or will eventually succumb to the Dark Side, but I don't see any contradiction to canon or "duality" of the Force.

I wouldn't call Bendu in Rebels a good guy, but he wasn't completely evil either.
Post edited January 04, 2020 by LootHunter
Posted January 04, 2020
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LootHunter: Except there isn't any "Grey Side" in canon.
Yes, Grey Jedi are not canon. The old Lucasfilm stated that more than once.

Grey Jedi are an EU creation that gained traction -- and I am certainly not an expert on their appearances and do not have any deep understanding of their philosophy -- but brought them up earlier because with Disney's Star Wars trajectory, I can completely see them trying to make even more of a mess of their interpretation of the Force by incorporating them.

I am convinced that Disney hates the Force. I think Iger and shareholders see it as too religious -- in their minds this is divisive -- and want a more generic fantasy magic system. They also hated the idea that the Force was somewhat exclusive to a limited number of Force-sensative individuals (how can every kid become a Jedi if it's exclusive!?). How to fix this? Make Rey a nobody with crazy Force powers... give Force-sensativity to everyone who wants it bad enough (Broom Kid)... and make the application of the Force more about "love magic"(er... you get what I mean, right?) than having a "religious" doctrine. Some of this Disney dialed back in TRoS (Rey's lineage being the big one), but it still feels like where the Mouse House wants Star Wars and the Force to end up.

In thinking about this the other day, that is really the problem with Disney Star Wars...

The first 6 episodes -- for all of their issues -- were the vision of one person. Yes, he was guided by others -- sometimes well, sometimes poorly -- but at the end of the day it was his solitary vision. Disney Star Wars is movies by commission with multiple factions therein (some who don't even like Star Wars!). Star Wars started as independent entertainment outside of the studio system... and now it is in fact part of that studio system. The Empire won in the end I guess.
Posted January 04, 2020
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kai2: The first 6 episodes -- for all of their issues -- were the vision of one person. Yes, he was guided by others -- sometimes well, sometimes poorly -- but at the end of the day it was his solitary vision. Disney Star Wars is movies by commission with multiple factions therein (some who don't even like Star Wars!).
Yeah. I've just watched a couple of youtube videos (one from Midnight Edge) about Rise of Skywalker. Several factions (lncluding Lucas, who was invited at some point to fix things) fighting over control over the film and pulling essential story each in own direction. And as a result getting a mish-mash that doesn't look like anything and pleases noone.
Posted January 04, 2020
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kai2: The first 6 episodes -- for all of their issues -- were the vision of one person. Yes, he was guided by others -- sometimes well, sometimes poorly -- but at the end of the day it was his solitary vision. Disney Star Wars is movies by commission with multiple factions therein (some who don't even like Star Wars!).
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LootHunter: Yeah. I've just watched a couple of youtube videos (one from Midnight Edge) about Rise of Skywalker. Several factions (lncluding Lucas, who was invited at some point to fix things) fighting over control over the film and pulling essential story each in own direction. And as a result getting a mish-mash that doesn't look like anything and pleases noone.
Well, it's about to get worse IMHO...

Disney is planning on re-casting the OT characters and introducing them into the Mandalorian. Ultimately, these characters (Luke, Leia, Han, Lando, etc.) will be spun off into their own show -- essentially Disney's version of Lucas' EU adventures. Supposedly they're trying to get Hamill to appear somehow in order to get audiences to accept it as canon.
Post edited January 04, 2020 by kai2
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionStar Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker(361 posts)(361 posts)
(361 posts)