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General discussionStar Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker(361 posts)(361 posts)
(361 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted December 25, 2019
Delete. DP
Post edited December 25, 2019 by ThorChild
Posted December 25, 2019
There is a reason i have the forum profile i do.

Sadly Star Wars is dead, and has been for a very longtime.

But it keeps making heaps of money so 'they' keep dragging it's zombie like petrified remains out to display so we (not me) can keep giving them money to carry on denigrating this once genre defining and life defining film series.

It's more than depressing in truth, kinda like watching people dig up your favourite most loved dead pet and drag it around on a piece of rope. Still that IS Star Wars since Return of the Jedi.

All you need to keep upto date on the health of Star Wars as a creative/entertainment work is the Red Letter Media reviews and associated shows. Here is the latest review of this latest insult to all that was once good and meant something (includes Spoilers):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pAsss_nTlk

Go back and watch their (Mr Plinket) deconstruction of the terrible prequel trilogy and all the other reviews of the new Disney mockeries. Watch their 'Nerd Crew' parody shows on the state of Star Wars fanboy-dom and all that is wrong with it.

For those of us that KNOW how bad Star Wars has fallen, atleast we still have the original trilogy that kicked this whole irreverent freak-show off.

And you can still get those original versions (not the re-makes Lucas put out that started messing with things like Han not shooting Greedo first or replacing Luke's fathers force spirit with Hayden Christensen (not his fault more than terrible direction from George).

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Star-Wars-IV-Hope-Limited/dp/B000FMH8UI/ref=sr_1_2?crid=97C8DEAU0WG4&keywords=star+wars+special+edition+dvd&qid=1577260069&sprefix=Star+Wars+special+%2Caps%2C220&sr=8-2

That 'Special Edition' set is the ONLY way to own the original films before George started messing them up.

The 'Bonus Disc' in those twin DVD sets is a copy of the true original films (from a laser-disc version). The picture is not perfect (but much better than the state of the film version at the time they looked to re-master them) but good enough in most cases to not get in the way. Still these are the original initial movie release versions of these awesome films and every serious Star Wars fan should have them imho.

Anything after this original trilogy is just an insult, first from George himself, and now from Disney.

R.I.P Star Wars (post the original trilogy before George started messing with them).

You were truly amazing, a longtime ago in a galaxy far, far away.
Post edited December 25, 2019 by ThorChild
Posted December 25, 2019
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ThorChild: ...
Ace rant, baby! I feel your pain. +1 well deserved.



Just a little side note on Red Letter Media/Plinkett: They're arguably the best (as in: entertaining) worst (as in: having shit taste) youtube reviewers out there. They're definitely adequate enough to rip into shit movies like the Star Wars prequels or some of the TNG era Trek movies, but they're hilariously inept at reviewing anything but the most atrocious dreck imaginable. They have this thing called re:View which is just horrific to watch. They did one episode on Escape From New York and Mike was like "Didn't like the soundtrack, orchestral soundtrack would be better. Couldn't tell if the film was meant seriously nor not, it needed more wink at the camera bullshit." It goes on and on like this and the guy keeps criticising the very things that make Escape From New York stand out from the masses while arguing in favor of lowest-common-denominator changes. The guy wouldn't know a good movie from a hole in the ground.

I couldn't make it past the 60 second mark of their Mad Max 2 review. Anyone who refers to Mad Max 2 as The Road Warrior has already disqualified themselves as an illiterate yank.

Then there's the Star Trek 2009 review. After spending literal hours nitpicking every minor detail in the TNG films (to the point where his First Contact review makes him look like a total sperg), this one gets a free pass because hurr durr audience stoopid, so film also needs to be stoopid deeeerp. Dude was kissing JJ's ass in that review, despite him having cranked out a film so stupid it would need a bib, so I guess JJ turning the sequels into an equally moronic clusterfuck is some sort of poetic justice.
Posted December 25, 2019
Yeah RLM are not always right 100%, for example i remember Mr.Plinket (Mike) going on about how great the New Star Treks were and JJ should do Star Wars and i had to completely disagree. I'm more a Star Wars fan than a Trek fan, but i know TNG was a high-point in Star Trek and why (it was mostly very smart and didn't treat you the viewer like a dumbass), and New Star Trek under JJ Abrams was ALL speed and dumbness and horrible characters you could not really like (or have time to get to like).

So yeah in hindsight i'm sure Mike regrets sucking up to JJ Abrams so much and regrets he did indeed do Star Wars (and killed that like he killed Star Trek in my book).

Still this is Xmas and i don't want to sound too much like scrooge, but yeah my god how bad can you destroy such potential Star Wars showed us in the original trilogies. And how badly did George (Lucas) need critical voices and skilled people around him to get the best out of his vision! Thank God for Marcia Lucas (and Paul Hirsch and Richard Chew) or it could have all started out bad and ended as bad as it did. And Thank God (or The Force) we have at least two amazing films and one decent one in that original trilogy.

Now Happy Xmas and may the Force be with you all this New Year :)
Posted December 26, 2019
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dudalb: "Solo" was not a bad film, but the whole making of it was such a clustefuck. Why dkf Kennedy wait unitl the film was 90% done before firing Lord and Miller if she did not like what she was seeing in the screnning room?
That is incomprehensible.
I liked the Disney Trilogy better then you did, but, yeah, it was trying way to hard to be the OT allover again.
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StingingVelvet: Kennedy is really the entire problem. I really hope office politics doesn't stop them from replacing her, because it's obvious she can't run the ship like they need her to. I'm not a big fan's of Johnson's dialog writing or JJs plotting, but they're good directors and the movies could have been great with a better producer to guide them and a lot more planning.
After seeing TROS this evening, I have to agree about Kennedy. I enjoyed a lot of the individual scenes in the film, but God, the scrirpt seemed jury rigged and cobbled together in a hurry....which it probably was. Way too many WTF moments.
Kennedy simply failed to do what Kevin Feige did at Marvel Studios, that is have a general plan and supervise the films so that they are all on the same track and they don't clash with each other.
Posted December 26, 2019
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StingingVelvet: Kennedy is really the entire problem. I really hope office politics doesn't stop them from replacing her, because it's obvious she can't run the ship like they need her to. I'm not a big fan's of Johnson's dialog writing or JJs plotting, but they're good directors and the movies could have been great with a better producer to guide them and a lot more planning.
I agree wholeheartedly.

Kennedy and her husband worked with Lucas for man, many, many years. Lucas hand-picked her to head Lucasfilm because he trusted her to follow through with his vision of the saga. But two things happened...

1. Kennedy -- who had never been a particularly creative Producer -- decided her legacy was to bring overt feminist themes to the forefront of Star Wars (like Star Wars was sexist prior?). Not a storyteller, her mission became to make movies about themes moreso than story. The creation and mission of Kennedy's Lucasfilm Story Group is insane. If you don't know much about it, look it up... there are articles. It's crazy.

2. When Disney / Iger said they weren't interested in using Lucas' outlines and vision, Kennedy instantly turned on Lucas.

Kennedy will be gone soon, but... she's stacked Lucasfilm full of like-minded people that it might be awhile to get her influence out of Star Wars. Those "Luke hater" posters weren't just odd employee jokes. They were a culture.
Posted December 26, 2019
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ThorChild: Anything after this original trilogy is just an insult, first from George himself, and now from Disney.
You're welcome to that opinion, but I don't agree with your Lucas assessment.
Posted December 26, 2019
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StingingVelvet: Kennedy is really the entire problem. I really hope office politics doesn't stop them from replacing her, because it's obvious she can't run the ship like they need her to. I'm not a big fan's of Johnson's dialog writing or JJs plotting, but they're good directors and the movies could have been great with a better producer to guide them and a lot more planning.
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kai2: I agree wholeheartedly.

Kennedy and her husband worked with Lucas for man, many, many years. Lucas hand-picked her to head Lucasfilm because he trusted her to follow through with his vision of the saga. But two things happened...

1. Kennedy -- who had never been a particularly creative Producer -- decided her legacy was to bring overt feminist themes to the forefront of Star Wars (like Star Wars was sexist prior?). Not a storyteller, her mission became to make movies about themes moreso than story. The creation and mission of Kennedy's Lucasfilm Story Group is insane. If you don't know much about it, look it up... there are articles. It's crazy.

2. When Disney / Iger said they weren't interested in using Lucas' outlines and vision, Kennedy instantly turned on Lucas.

Kennedy will be gone soon, but... she's stacked Lucasfilm full of like-minded people that it might be awhile to get her influence out of Star Wars. Those "Luke hater" posters weren't just odd employee jokes. They were a culture.
It's not just about feminism: she forced her idea which refers to feminism from 60's and 70's which she grew up with.
And as I see it KK bears the biggest cross but Iger also has its own, I would say 75% KK's fault and 25 Iger's.
The story group like it's now has to be disbanded and reformed.
All the above IMHO clearly.
Posted December 26, 2019
What I've read that isn't directly connected to the ST was decent to good, and usually respectful of the source material. It's the ST that feels like a fanfic by a 13 year old girl (was going to stay gender neutral, but, ReyLo, ffs), except I think the majority of girls that age are smarter than writing that. It's made all mistakes in the book about generational legacies (RJ doesn't seem to think much of the past to learn from it, but TFA already required everybody from the OT getting negative IQ the moment RotJ credits rolled), and maybe written new chapters.

It's lucky for Disney they are airing The Mandalorian now, as it seems many dissappointed with 9 just shrugged it off and wait for the next chapter. Main issue is there's no legal way afaik of watching it in most countries now.
Posted December 26, 2019
I fell asleep in the cinama watching Episode I. That actually happened (and has never been repeated in any other film!).

I bought Force Awakens on DVD and regretted it.

ALL the prequels did nothing to fix Lucas's own ego/ineptness as a Director (GREAT story creator though he is), 'The People vs George Lucas' has many of those specific details.

The actual history in what was invovled around the making of the original trilogy (the first film in particular) gives many clues as to why they succeeded (other people fixed them) where the prequels failed (now super-rich-famous Lucas had surrounded himself with 'yes men') etc. The Red Letter Media de-constructs of the prequels hit the nail on the head about those films short-comings (as films as much as Star Wars films).

ALL the Disney Star Wars is just a product line made by people that have no idea what Star Wars was really about or what made it great but DO understand how to market a franchise and milk it for all it's worth.

I understand it is easy to fall into the 'gender-politcs' trap, and the money put into that misinformation campaign makes it mark (and your welcome to your opinion on this), BUT purely as films, talking about script quality and the ability to tell coherent interesting stories in the medium of film, they are as bad as the prequels were, and sometimes worse.

Star Wars is dead and has been since 1983 (it turns out), and nothing can/will save it now. So cherish those few excellent Star Wars films as you will never see their like again.
Post edited December 26, 2019 by ThorChild
Posted December 26, 2019
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ThorChild: I fell asleep in the cinama watching Episode I. That actually happened (and has never been repeated in any other film!).
I thought that I was the only one that did that. It surprised the hell out of me, since I waited in line during opening night. Not sure when I fell asleep, but I probably slept/dozed for about 30 minutes, to wake up around the time of Maul appeared for his final battle.
Posted December 26, 2019
So Coruscant? Funny considering it's all worlbuilding. We see how innefective the Republic is, Palpatine adapting to events fast, and how the Jedi have their homemade Code so up their asses that Anakin's obvious significance flies over their heads (not about being the Cjosen One, but about being born in the middle of nowhere, not found until he was too old by their standards, and found by the guy they shunned from the Council for thinking differently).

Also, I know of someone who fell asleep watching Seven.
Posted December 26, 2019
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ThorChild: ALL the prequels did nothing to fix Lucas's own ego/ineptness as a Director (GREAT story creator though he is), 'The People vs George Lucas' has many of those specific details.
(I'm not meaning to create some big argument or fight... just state my perspective on Lucas. I think most will agree the prequels aren't on the same level as the OT)

I respectfully disagree. Lucas has directed a film that was up for Academy Award for Best Picture and Best Director... and has two films that he directed on AFI's Top 100 Films of All Time.

In my opinion, the move to discredit Lucas' directorial work is simply sour grapes... many people who disliked what he was doing with the prequels simply sought to diminish his importance to Star Wars... and that in fact brought us to what we have today at Disney.

Like most directors, Lucas best directorial work was early on when he had something to prove and few resources with which to prove it. And since directing is inherently reliant on those teams around you, Katz (co-writer), Huyck (co-writer), Kurtz (Producer), and his wife / editor Marcia Lucas were a brilliant and talented team. But more importantly...

... none of them were "yes" men.

Kurtz fought with Lucas often on the OT pushing Lucas to keep the series grounded in an "adult" space fantasy instead of simply another Buck Rodgers selling toys.

Marcia salvaged a "mess" of footage into a coherent Star Wars (but contrary to many critics... this is not strange. this happens to good directors all the time).

So, what happened with the prequels? How can a great director make such a "misfire?"

1. Lucas' team was gone. Kurtz and Lucas had a falling out just prior to Jedi and Kurtz left. Marcia and Lucas divorced. Etc... the old band broke up.

2. Lucas' new team was all "yes" men. His new Producer -- Rick McCallum -- was in it solely for the money and power, had no vision, and created a bad corporate culture at Lucasfilm. Creatives hated McCallum ( I know this first-hand)... but he surrounded himself and Lucas with "yes" men.

3. Lucas had no creative challenges as he had prior. If he wanted to reshoot everything and eat the budget, he could. If he wanted to shoot everything in a shoebox, he could. And as with most creative endeavors -- even among the extremely talented -- if you no longer have any real physical challenges to creating your vision, the end product often suffers. Complete freedom is often the dream of artists but death to their art.

4. McCallum purposely alienated the best writers "tested" on The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles from working on the prequels. Many wanted to work for Lucas but refused to work for McCallum. McCallum's take was "it's Star Wars... we don't need you."

It was a recipe for disaster, but IMO not about Lucas lack of directing skill or prowess. But even through it all, there was a vision and a core meaning to the tale... something completely missing in Disney Star Wars.

While I enjoy RLM and their prequel work is funny and jump-started their "careers," I accept their feelings... but wouldn't put much currency in their conclusions. That JJ stuff really worked out well for them.
Post edited December 26, 2019 by kai2
Posted December 26, 2019
The prequels are horribly written and directed, and suffer from focusing on CGI way before it was ready for that kind of spotlight. This rush to defend them born from disappointment with the Disney trilogy is silly. I'd guess it also has something to do with late-90s kids being older now and having nostalgia for them. Either way, whatever you think of the talent of George Lucas, those movies were not that good and he would not have "saved" the new trilogy.

Also there might be a few annoying examples of the culture war political crap we're going through today in the new trilogy, but it's faaaaaaar from the reason the movies are disappointing. They're disappointing because there was no firm plan and Johnson has a much, much different creative voice than Abrams which didn't mix well. It's not on Kennedy because she supposedly had a feminist voice, it's on her because she was a bad producer who didn't plan or guide her films well. Same with Rogue One requiring massive reshoots and Solo being re-shot almost entirely.
Posted December 26, 2019
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StingingVelvet: The prequels are horribly written and directed, and suffer from focusing on CGI way before it was ready for that kind of spotlight. This rush to defend them born from disappointment with the Disney trilogy is silly. I'd guess it also has something to do with late-90s kids being older now and having nostalgia for them. Either way, whatever you think of the talent of George Lucas, those movies were not that good and he would not have "saved" the new trilogy.
I agree with some of your points but don't I tend to agree with others.

While the prequels are not particularly good, the trilogy has a definite story and vision... and I'd argue parts of Revenge of the Sith are actually quite effective. Moreso than nostalgia it's that cohesive vision that is softening many to that trilogy. This is especially true now that we have seen what a trilogy with no definitive story and vision looks like; even dressed up with nostalgia and Abrams' flash it's a Frankenstein's monster of ideas. Although Johnson holds much of the blame for this patchwork quilt of a trilogy, Abrams filmmaking philosophy is almost as much to blame.

As for whether Lucas could have "saved" Disney Star Wars...

... although certainly not a guarantee, I actually think he had a better chance than what we got. If he had "Executive Produced" scripts based on his outlines with Abrams, Trevorrow, Filoni, and / or Favreau directing, I definitely think the potential was there for a much better outcome than what we got. When Lucas sold to Disney, he hadn't planned on writing or directing any of this series... but did think Disney would use him in a position similar to the Executive Producer position he held with Empire and Jedi. Ultimately we'll never know.

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StingingVelvet: Also there might be a few annoying examples of the culture war political crap we're going through today in the new trilogy, but it's faaaaaaar from the reason the movies are disappointing. They're disappointing because there was no firm plan and Johnson has a much, much different creative voice than Abrams which didn't mix well. It's not on Kennedy because she supposedly had a feminist voice, it's on her because she was a bad producer who didn't plan or guide her films well. Same with Rogue One requiring massive reshoots and Solo being re-shot almost entirely.
While Star Wars has always had strong female characters, only under Kennedy was there a campaign to actively deconstruct and emasculate male characters (especially Han and Luke). It's this seeming contempt for male characters while advocating for a god-like female main character that just lowered the whole experience to a political diatribe instead of a rousing space adventure with heroes fighting fascism. The biggest problem with this faulty premise is...

... it gave social ammunition to real sexists, racists, etc.

Where we do agree is that Kennedy is at the core of this mess. Almost all of her instincts with Star Wars were wrong, but if you read old interviews with her, you'll find that she in fact didn't like Star Wars. She said as much. (there are in fact claims floating around out here in Hollywood that she in fact always deeply disliked Lucas) So when Kennedy decided to inject social politics and insert a director who equally disliked Star Wars, Rian Johnson, it was clear there was big trouble. She pushed out creatives who loved the series, inserted junk, and her ego was so large that she felt it was all justified.

It's interesting that Lucas also had planned on a strong, female protagonist (in fact a brother and a sister) but he would have created a real character... and certainly would have respected what had come before.

I certainly hope one day we'll see a version of his story... in some form / medium. With how this Disney trilogy has landed, I think there's a good chance we'll see a "Legends" version one day sooner than later.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionStar Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker(361 posts)(361 posts)
(361 posts)